QUESTION...please help me
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QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 1:25am by Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay 
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RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 9:02am by I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
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RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 2:28pm by Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
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RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 5:48pm by Nope, God does say that homosexuality is wrong....I don't hate gays either, I have a large group of friends that are gay and bi and I love them all the same but what they do is wrong....It says in Leviticus 20:12 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..."
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
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RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 8:34pm by Please don't quote Leviticus, I have some really serious issues with that book. It was intended to be "the Law" but even the most serious Jews don't follow it's instructions.
soulfire2190 wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 05:48pm)
Nope, God does say that homosexuality is wrong....I don't hate gays either, I have a large group of friends that are gay and bi and I love them all the same but what they do is wrong....It says in Leviticus 20:12 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..."
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
[/quote]RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 28 2006 at 12:29am by BTW, if you’re planning on successful ministry toward women using the term 'whore' for any reason at all may not be the best plan. Unless of course your also going to use it to refer to men that commit adultery.
1. Superbia Pride
2. Invidia Envy
3. Ira Anger
4. Avaritia Avarice
5. Tristia Sadness
6. Gula Gluttony
7. Luxuria Lust
The sin ‘Tristia’ was later replaced by ‘Accidia’, or Sloth
This is the list as compiled, based on scripture, of what are considered to be the hotspots of human behavior/ thought referred to as 'mortal sin'. Although specifically Catholic teaching this is the basic model in the biblical workbooks and literature I have read from other denominations as well. These can also be found in the 12 step recovery program addressed in steps 6 and 7.
As far as I have been able to ascertain all of these have equal weight theologically. The difference is that when someone comes out as gay in most churches they are cast out OR allowed to stay so long as they don't date or 'engage in the homosexual lifestyle'. When someone is 150 pounds overweight no one looks twice. When someone has such envy for the possessions of others that they have a heart attack from over work at 45 it's just the status quo. The story of the woman being stoned was not so much about her adultery as it was about the hypocrisy of the Pharacies. When I take a look around I feel it still is.
ALSO:
SIN is a single blanket word that gets thrown around a lot when referring to how God feels about this or that. HOWEVER when translated it differs in meaning based on its usage. In both the old and new testament it is used as a noun or a verb. It is different from old to New Testament. Its meaning will also vary according to how it is used in a passage. The Hebrew has 22 different words/meanings and Greek has 23. For those that are interested check out Vines Concise Dictionary of the Bible and get a Bible that gives you translations. Find out what the Book says for yourself!
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 28 2006 at 6:24pm by Also look at the intended audience. Besides if you use Leviticus solely as your point of reference then I hope you don't dare eat cheese burgers, wear poly cotton blended fibers, cut your hair, or have any tattoos. You have to look at the context and intended audience of what you are quoting.
epherrin wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 08:34pm)
Please don't quote Leviticus, I have some really serious issues with that book. It was intended to be "the Law" but even the most serious Jews don't follow it's instructions.
soulfire2190 wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 05:48pm)
Nope, God does say that homosexuality is wrong....I don't hate gays either, I have a large group of friends that are gay and bi and I love them all the same but what they do is wrong....It says in Leviticus 20:12 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..."
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
[quote=jamesical] (Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
[/quote]
[/quote]
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Feb 3 2007 at 1:54am by soulfire2190 wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 05:48pm)
Nope, God does say that homosexuality is wrong....I don't hate gays either, I have a large group of friends that are gay and bi and I love them all the same but what they do is wrong....It says in Leviticus 20:12 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..."
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
[/quote]
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RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 27 2006 at 11:18pm by Well, let's do indeed diaologue. Again, whore and an adultery are NOT the same thing. You personally may consider someone who committed adultery to be a whore, but that doesn't mean they are. Someone who commits adultery may not be promiscuous (per the definition). My point in mentioning that in my previous post was to show how even today we misinterpret the verses. If we can misinterpret that it is possible to misinterpret other things...like the verses on homosexuality for example.
Secondly, please prove the biblical verse where Jesus judged her "sin" and not her. Because, I can't find it...anywhere.
Now, Jesus' "directive" of "sin no more" is subject to interpretation. That, to me, was not a commision to change and not commit adultery anymore. Otherwise, he would have told her "go and commit adultery no more" or "adultery is bad", etc. If the "commission to change" is true then she would have large shoes to fill by not "sinning" anymore. He didn't do that. Could there be some signifigance to that? Perhaps. But, regardless of interpretation Jesus did not judge her. And, ultimately, guess what...I bet you 10 dollars that she sinned afterwards. How do I know this? Because she was human like me.
No where did I say that behavior doesn't matter to God. However, God loves us REGARDLESS of ourselves. Jesus died on the cross FOR us and guess what, we don't have to earn our salvation. We couldn't even if we wanted too. And, thank God that I am still a sinner and HE still LOVES me and FORGIVES me.
My point in the previous post was to show how interpretation makes a difference in the reading of scriptures. You may interpret things one way and someone else another. It is impossible to accurately interpret the Bible without knowledge of the verses context, the social perspective of the time, who was being spoken to and about, not to mention knowledge of Hebrew, Latin, Greek, etc., etc. Man has been arguing about many verses in the Bible for centuries. Who are we to think we know everything and certainly what we can call definitive within the Bible? If you claim to be the person, I wouldn't want to stand near you when the lightening strikes.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
-
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 27 2006 at 11:37pm by I really don't want to get involved in this debate, but I have a strong opinio so here goes.
As far as the woman caught in adultery: Jesus didn't say "go and sin no more" as if when she ceased her whoring around that she would somehow become cleansed or righteous. I believe Jesus was speaking to her out of the reality of who He is, the one who would change the entire basis of her sin life, at his death. I believe it was a statement of welcome, spoken ahead of time; saying that because of His work, sin has been removed so that in truth, we no longer live in it.
I read an example (from True Faced) recently that really illustrates this well. If you took a caterpillar to a bioligist and had him run all the tests he could on it, including DNA, they would all conclude that these tests had been performed on a Butterfly. This caterpillar is 100% butterfly and there is nothing we can do to make it look, or act like a butterfly. Yelling at it won't do it, telling it how bad it is for crawling around like a caterpillar won't do it. Nothing but God's will can make this caterpillar a butterfly.
That's what I have had to do in my Christian life. To learn to trust God to work in other peoples lives and in mine. No amount of berating people for their sin will draw them to Christ. I also have had to learn to understand that there is nothing we can do to make God love us more or no sin we committ that will make Him love us less. We (christians) have the righteousness of Christ and He loves us no matter who we are, what we have done, or will do in the future, where we've been or who we've been there with. God loves us unconditionally! That is the message that Revolution chooses to preach.
One other thing that I have learned that I need to grasp; one sin is no greater than another in God's eyes. It's not my job (and it doesn't make sense according to scripture) to say that homosexuality, for example, is a greater sin than gossip. Or that looking at porn and lusting is a much worse sin than anger. God has no scale for this.
So much for staying out of it.
GRACE!!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 27 2006 @ 11:18pm)
Well, let's do indeed diaologue. Again, whore and an adultery are NOT the same thing. You personally may consider someone who committed adultery to be a whore, but that doesn't mean they are. Someone who commits adultery may not be promiscuous (per the definition). My point in mentioning that in my previous post was to show how even today we misinterpret the verses. If we can misinterpret that it is possible to misinterpret other things...like the verses on homosexuality for example.
Secondly, please prove the biblical verse where Jesus judged her "sin" and not her. Because, I can't find it...anywhere.
Now, Jesus' "directive" of "sin no more" is subject to interpretation. That, to me, was not a commision to change and not commit adultery anymore. Otherwise, he would have told her "go and commit adultery no more" or "adultery is bad", etc. If the "commission to change" is true then she would have large shoes to fill by not "sinning" anymore. He didn't do that. Could there be some signifigance to that? Perhaps. But, regardless of interpretation Jesus did not judge her. And, ultimately, guess what...I bet you 10 dollars that she sinned afterwards. How do I know this? Because she was human like me.
No where did I say that behavior doesn't matter to God. However, God loves us REGARDLESS of ourselves. Jesus died on the cross FOR us and guess what, we don't have to earn our salvation. We couldn't even if we wanted too. And, thank God that I am still a sinner and HE still LOVES me and FORGIVES me.
My point in the previous post was to show how interpretation makes a difference in the reading of scriptures. You may interpret things one way and someone else another. It is impossible to accurately interpret the Bible without knowledge of the verses context, the social perspective of the time, who was being spoken to and about, not to mention knowledge of Hebrew, Latin, Greek, etc., etc. Man has been arguing about many verses in the Bible for centuries. Who are we to think we know everything and certainly what we can call definitive within the Bible? If you claim to be the person, I wouldn't want to stand near you when the lightening strikes.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
[/quote]RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Jan 9 2007 at 2:09pm by [quote=stu.opug] (Dec 27 2006 @ 11:37pm)
I really don't want to get involved in this debate, but I have a strong opinio so here goes.
One other thing that I have learned that I need to grasp; one sin is no greater than another in God's eyes. It's not my job (and it doesn't make sense according to scripture) to say that homosexuality, for example, is a greater sin than gossip. Or that looking at porn and lusting is a much worse sin than anger. God has no scale for this.
So much for staying out of it.
***
You rightly say or imply homosexuality is a sin, here. I agree with that and I agree that it is no greater than any other sin. The issue at hand, though, is that some are saying that you can live faithfully as a Christian homosexual, which is no more true than saying one can live faithfully as a Christian gossip, adulterer, etc. If sin is in your life, as a Christian, you need to repent (turn away from, not just say I'm sorry) from the sin, whatever it may be to be acceptable to God.
God does love everyone and wants us to come to the knowledge of the truth (John 3:16,1 TIm 2:4), but what is often not said is that eternal life is promised to all who obey (Heb 5:9, among others).
So, while humans should not and do not have the authority to choose who can be taught God's word (we should welcome everyone Titus 2:11), we also do not have the authority to say that God will give eternal life to those who do not repent of their sin whether it be homosexuality, covetousness, envy, adultery, etc.
-
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 27 2006 at 11:37pm by jamesical wrote:
(Dec 27 2006 @ 11:18pm)
Well, let's do indeed diaologue. Again, whore and an adultery are NOT the same thing. You personally may consider someone who committed adultery to be a whore, but that doesn't mean they are. Someone who commits adultery may not be promiscuous (per the definition). My point in mentioning that in my previous post was to show how even today we misinterpret the verses. If we can misinterpret that it is possible to misinterpret other things...like the verses on homosexuality for example.
Secondly, please prove the biblical verse where Jesus judged her "sin" and not her. Because, I can't find it...anywhere.
Now, Jesus' "directive" of "sin no more" is subject to interpretation. That, to me, was not a commision to change and not commit adultery anymore. Otherwise, he would have told her "go and commit adultery no more" or "adultery is bad", etc. If the "commission to change" is true then she would have large shoes to fill by not "sinning" anymore. He didn't do that. Could there be some signifigance to that? Perhaps. But, regardless of interpretation Jesus did not judge her. And, ultimately, guess what...I bet you 10 dollars that she sinned afterwards. How do I know this? Because she was human like me.
No where did I say that behavior doesn't matter to God. However, God loves us REGARDLESS of ourselves. Jesus died on the cross FOR us and guess what, we don't have to earn our salvation. We couldn't even if we wanted too. And, thank God that I am still a sinner and HE still LOVES me and FORGIVES me.
My point in the previous post was to show how interpretation makes a difference in the reading of scriptures. You may interpret things one way and someone else another. It is impossible to accurately interpret the Bible without knowledge of the verses context, the social perspective of the time, who was being spoken to and about, not to mention knowledge of Hebrew, Latin, Greek, etc., etc. Man has been arguing about many verses in the Bible for centuries. Who are we to think we know everything and certainly what we can call definitive within the Bible? If you claim to be the person, I wouldn't want to stand near you when the lightening strikes.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
[/quote]RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 28 2006 at 12:29pm by I'm with you "stu.opug" and great point.
stu.opug wrote:
(Dec 27 2006 @ 11:37pm)
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 27 2006 @ 11:18pm)
Well, let's do indeed diaologue. Again, whore and an adultery are NOT the same thing. You personally may consider someone who committed adultery to be a whore, but that doesn't mean they are. Someone who commits adultery may not be promiscuous (per the definition). My point in mentioning that in my previous post was to show how even today we misinterpret the verses. If we can misinterpret that it is possible to misinterpret other things...like the verses on homosexuality for example.
Secondly, please prove the biblical verse where Jesus judged her "sin" and not her. Because, I can't find it...anywhere.
Now, Jesus' "directive" of "sin no more" is subject to interpretation. That, to me, was not a commision to change and not commit adultery anymore. Otherwise, he would have told her "go and commit adultery no more" or "adultery is bad", etc. If the "commission to change" is true then she would have large shoes to fill by not "sinning" anymore. He didn't do that. Could there be some signifigance to that? Perhaps. But, regardless of interpretation Jesus did not judge her. And, ultimately, guess what...I bet you 10 dollars that she sinned afterwards. How do I know this? Because she was human like me.
No where did I say that behavior doesn't matter to God. However, God loves us REGARDLESS of ourselves. Jesus died on the cross FOR us and guess what, we don't have to earn our salvation. We couldn't even if we wanted too. And, thank God that I am still a sinner and HE still LOVES me and FORGIVES me.
My point in the previous post was to show how interpretation makes a difference in the reading of scriptures. You may interpret things one way and someone else another. It is impossible to accurately interpret the Bible without knowledge of the verses context, the social perspective of the time, who was being spoken to and about, not to mention knowledge of Hebrew, Latin, Greek, etc., etc. Man has been arguing about many verses in the Bible for centuries. Who are we to think we know everything and certainly what we can call definitive within the Bible? If you claim to be the person, I wouldn't want to stand near you when the lightening strikes.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
[quote=jamesical] (Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
[/quote]
[/quote]
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 28 2006 at 12:24pm by Inerpretation is an issue. True. Can the Bible be accurately interpreted, yes. My feelings towards a text can't supercede it's intended meaning. We can't take one verse and make it a doctrine. We have to look at Scripture in it's entire context...old and new testament. Some things are very plain (love others, hate sin, etc) are plain even with the accurate historical context.
My first point is that we must love each other and I am with that. I have a homosexual friend and an ex-homosexual friend. THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE for me. As a pastor I love everyone. But help me understand where homosexuality was not considered a sin in the Bible when it says it is in numerous places. My thing is can we love a person but not aspects of their behavior and can God love a person and not aspects of their behavior? I say yes.
So i can finish this dialogue...
I hear your thoughts and it's about accurate interpretation. I believe that too.
Either words have a definition we subscribe to (like Webster and other sound sources) or we can just pretend they can mean whatever we want them to mean but I don't want to get off on that rant.
Secondly, Jesus said "I don't condmen (or judge) 'you' (the person) but He recognized her behavior as sinfully wrong (go and sin no more). It seems very plain to me that he judged her (called her behavior sin) and said he didn't condemn her. Seriously, if you are trying to say that she didn't sin because he didn't call her sin out by name, you're really missing something. Anyone can read that passage and clearly see that she was called out in her sin. Plain and simple. Her commission to change was "don't do it again...it's wrong." We don't know if she did it again, if she did, forgiveness through Christ is her salvation.
Nice dialogue and i appreciate your thoughts.
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 27 2006 @ 11:18pm)
Well, let's do indeed diaologue. Again, whore and an adultery are NOT the same thing. You personally may consider someone who committed adultery to be a whore, but that doesn't mean they are. Someone who commits adultery may not be promiscuous (per the definition). My point in mentioning that in my previous post was to show how even today we misinterpret the verses. If we can misinterpret that it is possible to misinterpret other things...like the verses on homosexuality for example.
Secondly, please prove the biblical verse where Jesus judged her "sin" and not her. Because, I can't find it...anywhere.
Now, Jesus' "directive" of "sin no more" is subject to interpretation. That, to me, was not a commision to change and not commit adultery anymore. Otherwise, he would have told her "go and commit adultery no more" or "adultery is bad", etc. If the "commission to change" is true then she would have large shoes to fill by not "sinning" anymore. He didn't do that. Could there be some signifigance to that? Perhaps. But, regardless of interpretation Jesus did not judge her. And, ultimately, guess what...I bet you 10 dollars that she sinned afterwards. How do I know this? Because she was human like me.
No where did I say that behavior doesn't matter to God. However, God loves us REGARDLESS of ourselves. Jesus died on the cross FOR us and guess what, we don't have to earn our salvation. We couldn't even if we wanted too. And, thank God that I am still a sinner and HE still LOVES me and FORGIVES me.
My point in the previous post was to show how interpretation makes a difference in the reading of scriptures. You may interpret things one way and someone else another. It is impossible to accurately interpret the Bible without knowledge of the verses context, the social perspective of the time, who was being spoken to and about, not to mention knowledge of Hebrew, Latin, Greek, etc., etc. Man has been arguing about many verses in the Bible for centuries. Who are we to think we know everything and certainly what we can call definitive within the Bible? If you claim to be the person, I wouldn't want to stand near you when the lightening strikes.
James
ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)
Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...
Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.
Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.
You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.
Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.
Am i missing something?
Thanks guys!
jamesical wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)
I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.
First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.
Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?
At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.
Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.
I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.
One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.
James
[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
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RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Jul 24 2007 at 1:18pm by I really don't believe being gay is wrong. You have to realize that it's not who you are, it's how your behavior is before God. You can be gay, and have a problem with child molestation. That's Wrong! It's your actions that will be judged, not because of who you are. I'm gay, but never choose to be. I felt I was different when I was about eight years of age. I hid my feelings when I started to attend church. Later on in life, I got married, but I still had feelings for other men. I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, yet still had feelings for men.
To make a very long story short; I was praying one day, and the spirit of God came on me, and he spoke to my heart in that still small voice. You may not want to believe me, but as sure as I know God is real, this is what he said to me: "Jim, I want you to be honest with me first, (in regards with my sexuality), be honest with yourself, then be honest with those around you. My love for you is an undying love. I love you for who you are".
The next day I came out of the closet. God was so much more closer to me now than he ever was before. I knew the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me, regardless of what other peole believed. I knew I could serve him with a TRUE Heart now, and that I had nothing to hide. Today I live with my partner of nine years. I confess today that God still rules in my life, and I have never been so happy. Visit my website at: jimsites.org. Be Patient. I'm in the process of building it. For more information about me, and how I can help you spiritually, please log on, and we'll chat.
God bless, Jim Sites
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RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Dec 28 2006 at 7:12pm by ahpastian wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)
Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay
Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this. We'll see how it goes. It's my opinion only, so it's here to agree or disagree with or any other variation in between.
I'm not certain, to begin with, that we have the right to call anything "morally wrong" TO GOD. Isn't that sort of backward? Isn't God supposed to be the one who informs us of morality, at least in the christian living context? Also, I do not feel we have to determine if any particular sexual behavior is "biblically wrong". Why? Well, do we all eat according to the many rules of what is kosher and what is not kosher according to the bible? Of course not! And why? Well, because it's from a long time ago when they didn't have refrigerators and freezers and safe, standardized ways to make sure that a particular meat wouldn't make us sick or die from eating it. So, why is it that we take these other "biblical wrongs" out and parade them about as though we NEED to judge them? Did we not learn that God is the final judge? Discernment, for the sake of choosing one's compadres personally is a good thing, thus "You will know them by their fruits" but that is discernment, not judgement.
And lastly, does God consider homosexuality to be sinful behavior? My opinion is "no, He does not". As far as I can tell, what God considered sinful behavior in Soddom and Gommorah was FORCIBLE SEX aka rape. What the father was trying to do was to calm rapists down into regular sexual relations, and it didn't work because they wanted mayhem, not intimacy. So, my opinion is that it is most likely that homosexuality, in which a person is CREATED differently than 90% of the population could hardly be something the CREATOR would condemn. That would make God the largest sadist in the universe, would it not?
These are my opinions. Thanks for listening.
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Jan 13 2007 at 2:26am by It seems to me that what I have been taught in my theological training is quite different from what most of you are seeing here, though similar to one, and similar in approach to others, but with a different result.
First, I must say that I am not sure I even believe what I am telling you anymore myself. It is what I have believed and been taught in the past, and perhaps it will be useful to the discussion, but I am going through the process of re-examining much of what I have been taught and believed and that's why I'm even watching this show (and finding it very stimulating and helpful).
Ok, now to the woman. First, it doesn't matter whether we equate "judge" with "condemn" or not, because if we read the text rhetorically (meaning to examine in its context with regard for its intended message and its intended audience), we'll find a pretty simple understanding of that word. The bottom line is that the law had very specific requirements. It did not allow for lynching and mob executions. Stoning could only happen when a number of legal directives were followed, such that some bible commentators have said that properly executed stonings were done by "deputized" groups who had a specific function within the civil government of Israel.
Between Leviticus 20 and Deuteronomy 22, among other places, the law required that two or three eye witnesses "condemn" the accused. And further, the law required that BOTH parties be stoned. So, when the pharisees brought the woman to Jesus alone, without the man, the law was not being followed to start with, since the man was not brought with her (and it is evident that they knew who the man was, because they told Jesus she was "caught" in the act). In his interaction with the pharisees, Jesus never for one minute sought to defend the woman's innocence. In fact, his later words showed he sovereignly knew her to be guilty.
Contextually, the pharisees were not trying to provide a biblical trial for the woman, or ask Jesus' help in following the law correctly, and they knew that--they were trying, as the John tells us in an aside, to trap Jesus with their cleverness. So the incident was not centered around the woman, or her sin, or the righteous requirements of the law, but was a challenge against Jesus by which they hoped to trap and accuse him. Of course, the reason they thought they might trap him was that he had come preaching forgiveness of sin, and was known as a friend of sinners, for which they called him a glutton, a winebibber, and a friend of whores and tax gatherers (and it is quite simply true that the woman was a whore, according to biblical language, which all of us are also spiritually when we fail to be faithful to God).
So, Jesus brilliantly diffused the situation, as he always did, and the pharisees one by one quietly went away until there was only Jesus and the accused woman left. Legally this meant that she was officially acquitted, or in other words, not condemned. So Jesus told her, basically in the legal language of the day, "I also acquit you of this charge." But, rather than leaving at that, so people who heard of it, or read it, or discussed it like we are today, would think that he was condoning her lifestyle, he also said, "go and sin no more." Or, as the NIV puts it, "leave your life of sin."
Also, this becomes a beautiful earthly picture of Jesus as our advocate when we are accused before God by our own sins (as well, the bible tells us, by "the deceiver" and "accuser" himself). Jesus defense of us before His father's righteous judgment is not based on our innocence any more than was his defense of the woman. But more than merely the beautiful picture of grace and mercy that this surely is, it is also a picture of Jesus shrewdly defeating the prideful pharisees, and also pointing out to all who have an ear to hear that the law does not exist merely for condemnation, but to point us to righteousness.
So, that's what it boils down to, to me. Can we not, like Jesus, abstain from condemnation, and in fact acquit our brothers and sisters so that we, like God the father, see the righteousness of Jesus either actually or potentially covering the sin of the sinner, but also say to the sinner, attempting to point her or him towards the light, "leave your life of sin." Can we not do this and not be accuse of judgmentalism? (Let's not get bogged down here discussing how it isn't hardly ever done this way. Let's talk about what we ought to do, not what is done.)
I also agree that what Stu said is true, but maybe it is true in addition to the rest of this, that Jesus was also speaking as God, and giving the woman true absolution, living water, eternal acquittal. But even if we see it that way, when we offer our brothers and sisters that living water today, what is wrong or unloving about saying that they need to "leave their lives of sin?"
That is what I've been trying to understand: why it makes people homophobes or judgmental asses to call wrong what God calls wrong. If I am right about these concerns, then the question is what does that mean to the discussion? How could we act in such a way as to address the concerns of those who say we're driving people away, and yet also speak God's words after him and say lovingly and acceptingly of the person, "go and sin no more," which is to imply that you were sinning before, and ought to stop now. There is no limit to how often we should extend grace and mercy to the penitent, according to Jesus' seventy times seven rule (meaning indefinitely). So we must stand up to bullies and bigots and haters and meanies on behalf of the downtrodden, even in their sin (for does not the bible record that Jesus died for us while we were yet IN our sin?), and we must say to those downtrodden ones, "neither do I condemn thee."
But are we to leave off the "go and sin no more?"
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Feb 5 2007 at 11:39pm by Most Biblical scholars agree that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. For more information (not direct from the scholars, but a good, easy condensed read)...
http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Sexuality_Spirituality
Homosexuality is NOT A CHOICE. Why would anyone CHOOSE this life to be hurt, persecuted and mistreated? So I can go to bed with a man? Please... sex is not all that.
Even if it was a choice, and the behavior sinful, why is this sin elevated above others? I can't quite tell...there is a plank in my eye, or I might be able to point out the sliver in yours.
RE: QUESTION...please help me Posted on Feb 5 2007 at 11:41pm by http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Sexuality_Spirituality
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