Gay-Affirming Podcast
-
Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 22 2006 at 2:42pm by I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 22 2006 at 4:02pm by I am Catholic, and I have been taught that the Bible declares homosexuality to be sinful. I have been taught that it is not a sin to be gay, but to give in to those homosexual desires is. You have said just the opposite in your latest Podcast, Jay. You said that if the historical context is taken into account, people would better understand what the Bible really says about this issue. Could you cite some particular passages and give us all the historical background that you believe does not condemn homosexuality? I became very confused when you said that in your Podcast, and I (and dare I say many others) would like that historical support to back up your beliefs. RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Sep 12 2007 at 4:17am by Yeah, the explanations really werent air tight were they?
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Sep 12 2007 at 4:19am by I guess we should also say its okay to commit adultry now eh>
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Sep 12 2007 at 4:20am by I guess we should also say its okay to commit adultry now eh>
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 22 2006 at 7:05pm by I've been told I am a very different type of Christian. My belief comes from a personal inescapable feeling of the presence of God. And a belief in Christ as the son of God and having sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. Not from a church or the Bible. As such, my picture of God is not dictated by the Bible. The God I picture is very loving of his children. I do believe that God doesn't make mistakes.
So I also believe that God did not make a mistake in the creation of homosexual people. I do not believe it is a choice. I do not believe it is the environment in which they are raised. There are gay children that come out of the most conservative, heterosexual households and there are heterosexual children that come out of the most liberal, homosexual households. And all variations in between. I believe they are born gay just as I am born straight. I also can not for a second imagine the God I love creating these people to be homosexual to either deny who they truly are and to live a life of misery or to be damned to hell for being true to who they really are.
That then raises the question, why? Why would God create homosexual people? Well, why does God create people of different races? Why does God allow there to be people of various cultures? Why does God allow there to be people of various religions or lack there of? And so on. Diversity. What would be the point to this world if we were all the same? What would we gain from a place full of people that are all the same. These differences re what give this world it's color. It's flavor. Perhaps it's very meaning. But hey, those are just MY thoughts. :-) Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Happy Holidays!
http://www.youtube.com/user/1938superman-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 22 2006 at 7:29pm by You said "I do not believe it is a choice". Jay, you said the same thing on Episode 2. It seems the logic is, "Well, if it's not a choice than it cannot be wrong."
If this is true, then can I ask, "why can't I choose this lifestyle?" It seems to me any time someone says "well, it's not a choice," what they are reaffirming is this idea that homosexuality is something unwanted. "But, well, I was born with it so this is the life I must lead, and it can't be wrong." I have several gay friends who do not believe they were born with their sexual preferences, but have arrived at them regardless, through various other events. What would you say to them?
If homosexuality is not wrong, folks, then why can't some choose it?
T
fear_68 wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 07:05pm)
I've been told I am a very different type of Christian. My belief comes from a personal inescapable feeling of the presence of God. And a belief in Christ as the son of God and having sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. Not from a church or the Bible. As such, my picture of God is not dictated by the Bible. The God I picture is very loving of his children. I do believe that God doesn't make mistakes.
So I also believe that God did not make a mistake in the creation of homosexual people. I do not believe it is a choice. I do not believe it is the environment in which they are raised. There are gay children that come out of the most conservative, heterosexual households and there are heterosexual children that come out of the most liberal, homosexual households. And all variations in between. I believe they are born gay just as I am born straight. I also can not for a second imagine the God I love creating these people to be homosexual to either deny who they truly are and to live a life of misery or to be damned to hell for being true to who they really are.
That then raises the question, why? Why would God create homosexual people? Well, why does God create people of different races? Why does God allow there to be people of various cultures? Why does God allow there to be people of various religions or lack there of? And so on. Diversity. What would be the point to this world if we were all the same? What would we gain from a place full of people that are all the same. These differences re what give this world it's color. It's flavor. Perhaps it's very meaning. But hey, those are just MY thoughts. :-) Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Happy Holidays!
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 23 2006 at 12:44am by I'm not suggesting for a second that there is anything wrong with homosexuality at all. Quite the opposite. What I was suggesting is that homosexuality, in my estimation, is no more a choice than heterosexuality. I don't recall choosig to be heterosexual. It's just the way I am. And I had plenty of opportunity to consider whether or not i may have been gay. I never experimented with that idea but I had opportunities where I could have. And I was just never attracted to men. And every homosexual person I have ever spoken to about this subject has said that they were never really attracted to the opposite sex, though some may have tried or pretended, and they came from various different backgrounds.
If your gay friends believe it is a choice, I would say they obviously have the right to believe whatever they want and they obviously would know more about why they are gay than I would. But what I would ask them is, that if it is a choice, does that then mean that if they wanted to that they could choose to be straight and to be attracted to the opposite sex? And if so, wouldn't that make them bi-sexual rather than homosexual?
thomas wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 07:29pm)
You said "I do not believe it is a choice". Jay, you said the same thing on Episode 2. It seems the logic is, "Well, if it's not a choice than it cannot be wrong."
If this is true, then can I ask, "why can't I choose this lifestyle?" It seems to me any time someone says "well, it's not a choice," what they are reaffirming is this idea that homosexuality is something unwanted. "But, well, I was born with it so this is the life I must lead, and it can't be wrong." I have several gay friends who do not believe they were born with their sexual preferences, but have arrived at them regardless, through various other events. What would you say to them?
If homosexuality is not wrong, folks, then why can't some choose it?
T
fear_68 wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 07:05pm)
I've been told I am a very different type of Christian. My belief comes from a personal inescapable feeling of the presence of God. And a belief in Christ as the son of God and having sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. Not from a church or the Bible. As such, my picture of God is not dictated by the Bible. The God I picture is very loving of his children. I do believe that God doesn't make mistakes.
So I also believe that God did not make a mistake in the creation of homosexual people. I do not believe it is a choice. I do not believe it is the environment in which they are raised. There are gay children that come out of the most conservative, heterosexual households and there are heterosexual children that come out of the most liberal, homosexual households. And all variations in between. I believe they are born gay just as I am born straight. I also can not for a second imagine the God I love creating these people to be homosexual to either deny who they truly are and to live a life of misery or to be damned to hell for being true to who they really are.
That then raises the question, why? Why would God create homosexual people? Well, why does God create people of different races? Why does God allow there to be people of various cultures? Why does God allow there to be people of various religions or lack there of? And so on. Diversity. What would be the point to this world if we were all the same? What would we gain from a place full of people that are all the same. These differences re what give this world it's color. It's flavor. Perhaps it's very meaning. But hey, those are just MY thoughts. :-) Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Happy Holidays!
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 3:07pm by Jay, I have a question for you. To frame it a bit, I've noticed disillusionment with the evangelical Christian status quo. It's almost like Jesus is whispering in the ears of people like Carlton Pearson and saying "Don't buy what they're selling." So on with the question...you have a take on things that is much more in keeping with what I believe is truth. Are you prepared for the shit that comes down to those people willing to buck the system at their peril?
fear_68 wrote:
(Dec 23 2006 @ 12:44am)
I'm not suggesting for a second that there is anything wrong with homosexuality at all. Quite the opposite. What I was suggesting is that homosexuality, in my estimation, is no more a choice than heterosexuality. I don't recall choosig to be heterosexual. It's just the way I am. And I had plenty of opportunity to consider whether or not i may have been gay. I never experimented with that idea but I had opportunities where I could have. And I was just never attracted to men. And every homosexual person I have ever spoken to about this subject has said that they were never really attracted to the opposite sex, though some may have tried or pretended, and they came from various different backgrounds.
If your gay friends believe it is a choice, I would say they obviously have the right to believe whatever they want and they obviously would know more about why they are gay than I would. But what I would ask them is, that if it is a choice, does that then mean that if they wanted to that they could choose to be straight and to be attracted to the opposite sex? And if so, wouldn't that make them bi-sexual rather than homosexual?
thomas wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 07:29pm)
You said "I do not believe it is a choice". Jay, you said the same thing on Episode 2. It seems the logic is, "Well, if it's not a choice than it cannot be wrong."
If this is true, then can I ask, "why can't I choose this lifestyle?" It seems to me any time someone says "well, it's not a choice," what they are reaffirming is this idea that homosexuality is something unwanted. "But, well, I was born with it so this is the life I must lead, and it can't be wrong." I have several gay friends who do not believe they were born with their sexual preferences, but have arrived at them regardless, through various other events. What would you say to them?
If homosexuality is not wrong, folks, then why can't some choose it?
T
fear_68 wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 07:05pm)
I've been told I am a very different type of Christian. My belief comes from a personal inescapable feeling of the presence of God. And a belief in Christ as the son of God and having sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. Not from a church or the Bible. As such, my picture of God is not dictated by the Bible. The God I picture is very loving of his children. I do believe that God doesn't make mistakes.
So I also believe that God did not make a mistake in the creation of homosexual people. I do not believe it is a choice. I do not believe it is the environment in which they are raised. There are gay children that come out of the most conservative, heterosexual households and there are heterosexual children that come out of the most liberal, homosexual households. And all variations in between. I believe they are born gay just as I am born straight. I also can not for a second imagine the God I love creating these people to be homosexual to either deny who they truly are and to live a life of misery or to be damned to hell for being true to who they really are.
That then raises the question, why? Why would God create homosexual people? Well, why does God create people of different races? Why does God allow there to be people of various cultures? Why does God allow there to be people of various religions or lack there of? And so on. Diversity. What would be the point to this world if we were all the same? What would we gain from a place full of people that are all the same. These differences re what give this world it's color. It's flavor. Perhaps it's very meaning. But hey, those are just MY thoughts. :-) Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Happy Holidays!
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 3:21pm by And by the way, there is a LOT more going on to life than Gay or Straight and silly earthly issues like that. As such, for those people who allow descriptors of people to color their opinions and actions, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone..." (Wow, no one qualifies to throw stones!)
sandiheller wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 03:07pm)
Jay, I have a question for you. To frame it a bit, I've noticed disillusionment with the evangelical Christian status quo. It's almost like Jesus is whispering in the ears of people like Carlton Pearson and saying "Don't buy what they're selling." So on with the question...you have a take on things that is much more in keeping with what I believe is truth. Are you prepared for the shit that comes down to those people willing to buck the system at their peril?
fear_68 wrote:
(Dec 23 2006 @ 12:44am)
I'm not suggesting for a second that there is anything wrong with homosexuality at all. Quite the opposite. What I was suggesting is that homosexuality, in my estimation, is no more a choice than heterosexuality. I don't recall choosig to be heterosexual. It's just the way I am. And I had plenty of opportunity to consider whether or not i may have been gay. I never experimented with that idea but I had opportunities where I could have. And I was just never attracted to men. And every homosexual person I have ever spoken to about this subject has said that they were never really attracted to the opposite sex, though some may have tried or pretended, and they came from various different backgrounds.
If your gay friends believe it is a choice, I would say they obviously have the right to believe whatever they want and they obviously would know more about why they are gay than I would. But what I would ask them is, that if it is a choice, does that then mean that if they wanted to that they could choose to be straight and to be attracted to the opposite sex? And if so, wouldn't that make them bi-sexual rather than homosexual?
thomas wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 07:29pm)
You said "I do not believe it is a choice". Jay, you said the same thing on Episode 2. It seems the logic is, "Well, if it's not a choice than it cannot be wrong."
If this is true, then can I ask, "why can't I choose this lifestyle?" It seems to me any time someone says "well, it's not a choice," what they are reaffirming is this idea that homosexuality is something unwanted. "But, well, I was born with it so this is the life I must lead, and it can't be wrong." I have several gay friends who do not believe they were born with their sexual preferences, but have arrived at them regardless, through various other events. What would you say to them?
If homosexuality is not wrong, folks, then why can't some choose it?
T
[quote=fear_68] (Dec 22 2006 @ 07:05pm)
I've been told I am a very different type of Christian. My belief comes from a personal inescapable feeling of the presence of God. And a belief in Christ as the son of God and having sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. Not from a church or the Bible. As such, my picture of God is not dictated by the Bible. The God I picture is very loving of his children. I do believe that God doesn't make mistakes.
So I also believe that God did not make a mistake in the creation of homosexual people. I do not believe it is a choice. I do not believe it is the environment in which they are raised. There are gay children that come out of the most conservative, heterosexual households and there are heterosexual children that come out of the most liberal, homosexual households. And all variations in between. I believe they are born gay just as I am born straight. I also can not for a second imagine the God I love creating these people to be homosexual to either deny who they truly are and to live a life of misery or to be damned to hell for being true to who they really are.
That then raises the question, why? Why would God create homosexual people? Well, why does God create people of different races? Why does God allow there to be people of various cultures? Why does God allow there to be people of various religions or lack there of? And so on. Diversity. What would be the point to this world if we were all the same? What would we gain from a place full of people that are all the same. These differences re what give this world it's color. It's flavor. Perhaps it's very meaning. But hey, those are just MY thoughts. :-) Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Happy Holidays!
[/quote]-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 4:21pm by Why Can't I Own a Canadian?
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as
informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need
some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
JimRE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 8:20pm by That was clever and funny...and I continue be an advocate for owning Canadians....(does this make me a racist?)
subhuti wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 04:21pm)
Why Can't I Own a Canadian?
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as
informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need
some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 8:20pm by That was clever and funny...and I continue be an advocate for owning Canadians....(does this make me a racist?)
subhuti wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 04:21pm)
Why Can't I Own a Canadian?
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as
informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need
some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
-
-
-
-
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jun 29 2007 at 8:25am by Some years ago, I authored a letter to CephasMinistry.com in defense of Jay Bakker.
( http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_jay_bakker.html )
For the record, I still feel the same now as I did when I authored that letter.
-However-
I feel that the proverbial line in the sand has been drawn. Jay's chosen to cross that line, and I've chosen not to. I feel that, as a Christian, I cannot pick and choose which passages of scripture are applicable for today's world and which ones aren't. For me, the Word of God is just as applicable today as it was when it was authored thousands of years ago.
My brother was very well known in gay communities all across the United States. His birth name was Barry Rogers, but he was known as "Johnny Rahm". I loved my brother very much, and he knew that. I was able to have a brotherly relationship with him. In spite of his homosexuality, Barry and I had a great relationship as brothers. Barry committed suicide at Piedmont Park on November 6, 2004.
That being said, Barry made a choice - a conscious decision - to become a homosexual. I do not believe that God creates anyone gay anymore than I believe that God creates someone to become a pedophile. All are conscious decisions that a person makes. (And I am not equating homosexuality with pedophilia. I view both as sexual sin, but that's where the similarities end.)
Other posters on here have gone through the trouble of posting applicable passages of scriptures, both from the Old and New Testaments, so I won't bother to repeat them here.
I believe that God was the author of the Bible. He inspired men, who wrote down what God laid upon their hearts. I do not believe that I follow and serve a God who is double-minded or speaks with a forked tongue. It makes no logical sense whatsoever for Him to condemn an action, then turn around and create the very thing that He's condemned. I don't believe that God would do that.
Satan's deceptions are strong. Whether it's homosexuality, adultery, or any other sexual sin, if we enjoy it and don't want to turn away from it, then we'll believe what we want to believe, and justify it within our own minds in order to continue in that sin and feel as though God's condoning our activities.
It's time to wake up and see sin for what it really is: A lie and deception straight from the pits of hell.
I do not hate homosexuals at all. Rather, I love them as I do everyone else. As with my brother, I have the ability to separate the individual from their sin, and love them while detesting what they are doing.
I pray that God starts opening people's eyes before it is eternally too late.
Don't hate me for the way that I feel, please. I would be lying to both of us if I were to pretend to believe otherwise. Just as you feel that you must be true to yourself, I must be true to myself as well.
Peace
Scott RogersRE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Sep 12 2007 at 4:34am by Right on Scott. We cannot pick and choose what we believe in the bible. I really wish that people would understand that you can love someone and still disagree with what they do at the same time.
-
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 23 2006 at 2:22am by I suppose I should start and say that Im a terrible person, Im selfish, materialistic and shallow. Im a sinner that is only lovable through the grace of Christ. I know these things are wrong and it is Christ in my life that motivates me to change them and to be a more selfless, giving, caring person.
God hates sin, he can have nothing to do with sin, that includes me and my sinful nature my selfishness. I am only allowed to have a relationship with God because of Christ's love and sacrifice.
I do think that a homosexual lifestyle is a sin, no more than my own. I applaud Jay and others for welcoming homosexuals into their church because so many 'traditional' churches have pushed homosexuals away. They must be welcomed and loved.-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 1:46am by micah.obadiah wrote:
(Dec 23 2006 @ 02:22am)
I suppose I should start and say that Im a terrible person, Im selfish, materialistic and shallow. Im a sinner that is only lovable through the grace of Christ. I know these things are wrong and it is Christ in my life that motivates me to change them and to be a more selfless, giving, caring person.
God hates sin, he can have nothing to do with sin, that includes me and my sinful nature my selfishness. I am only allowed to have a relationship with God because of Christ's love and sacrifice.
I do think that a homosexual lifestyle is a sin, no more than my own. I applaud Jay and others for welcoming homosexuals into their church because so many 'traditional' churches have pushed homosexuals away. They must be welcomed and loved.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 1:54am by I thank you jay for hearring the ward .I a gay chistion AND I have seen God work thought me to help others to heal,we are all God's kids . warriordove2 wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 01:46am)
micah.obadiah wrote:
(Dec 23 2006 @ 02:22am)
I suppose I should start and say that Im a terrible person, Im selfish, materialistic and shallow. Im a sinner that is only lovable through the grace of Christ. I know these things are wrong and it is Christ in my life that motivates me to change them and to be a more selfless, giving, caring person.
God hates sin, he can have nothing to do with sin, that includes me and my sinful nature my selfishness. I am only allowed to have a relationship with God because of Christ's love and sacrifice.
I do think that a homosexual lifestyle is a sin, no more than my own. I applaud Jay and others for welcoming homosexuals into their church because so many 'traditional' churches have pushed homosexuals away. They must be welcomed and loved.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 1:28pm by warriordove2 wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 01:46am)
micah.obadiah wrote:
(Dec 23 2006 @ 02:22am)
I suppose I should start and say that Im a terrible person, Im selfish, materialistic and shallow. Im a sinner that is only lovable through the grace of Christ. I know these things are wrong and it is Christ in my life that motivates me to change them and to be a more selfless, giving, caring person.
God hates sin, he can have nothing to do with sin, that includes me and my sinful nature my selfishness. I am only allowed to have a relationship with God because of Christ's love and sacrifice.
I do think that a homosexual lifestyle is a sin, no more than my own. I applaud Jay and others for welcoming homosexuals into their church because so many 'traditional' churches have pushed homosexuals away. They must be welcomed and loved.
-
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 1:12pm by jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 1:13pm by fotograf11 wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 01:12pm)
jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 1:21pm by
[b][i][u]thanks Jay for your stand [thanks]jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 4:45pm by The following remarks on homosexuality and religion contain insights by Osho, the contemporary Enlightened Indian Mystic. I feel they are relevant to this discussion and support the Punk Rev. Baker's position:
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN BEING HOMOSEXUAL -- YOU NEED NOT FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT. One certainly has to go beyond sex, but that is as applicable to heterosexuality as it is applicable to homosexuality. Heterosexuality or homosexuality are just different styles of the same
stupidity! You need not feel guilty.
IN FACT, LOOKING AT THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD, HOMOSEXUALITY SHOULD BE SUPPORTED. At least you will not be increasing the population of the world, you will not be loading the earth more. It is already loaded too
much.
HOMOSEXUALITY SHOULD BE VALUED, RESPECTED -- IT IS PURE FUN!
Heterosexuality is dangerous. And what is wrong? If two persons are enjoying each other's bodies, nothing is wrong. It should be their concern, nobody else's business to interfere.
But the society is continuously interfering in everything; it does not leave anybody any privacy. It enters in your bedroom too. Your society is not a free society. It talks of freedom and democracy and all that rot, but it is pure slavery, it is a big prison. And your priests and
your so-called God are all Peeping Toms. They are all looking into your private lives to see what you are doing. It should be nobody else's business.
WHAT IS WRONG IN LOVING A MAN OR A WOMAN? Two men can love each other, two women can love each other. Love is a value in itself. And fun should not be condemned. Life is already such a burden, such a drag, such a boredom. Leave at least something in life so people can feel a little less bored.
Here you need not feel afraid to show yourself the way you are. My whole approach is to help you to be the way you are, because that is the only way to help you transcend it. Feel guilty and you will remain the same. Guilt never transforms anybody.
And homosexuality is such an innocent phenomenon. Why is it so much condemned? The reason is that if it is not condemned, the fear is that almost everybody will turn homosexual because every child has the tendency. Every child passes through the stage when he is homosexual. very boy, every girl, passes through a time when boys like boys and
girls like girls. The fear is that if many people turn homosexual -- particularly in the past when the population was not big and every society wanted greater numbers because numbers meant power... To allow homosexuality was dangerous; it had to be condemned, absolutely condemned, so much so that in a few countries it is the greatest crime.
For example, in Ayatollah Khomaniac's country, Iran, it is one of the greatest crimes. You can be sentenced for your whole life or you can even be sentenced to death -- just for being homosexual. It seems absolutely absurd, ridiculous, but in the past there was some reason for it. Every society wanted to be more powerful. It was a constant struggle -- a struggle between groups, a struggle between tribes, a
struggle between clans -- who will succeed? And the only deciding factor was your number, how many you were.
If people became homosexual, then numbers will decrease. Hence it has to be condemned as the greatest sin.
It may have some meaning if you think of the past, but in the present it is absolutely meaningless. In fact, the whole situation has become just the opposite, now heterosexuality is the danger; less numbers are needed. If humanity goes on growing this way, then we cannot support humanity, we cannot live any longer. By the end of this century the
population will be so much, the poverty will be so much that there seems to be no way out except for a Third World War which will kill almost everybody so that a few people can start the whole story again.
I have heard a story, a twenty-first century story:
The Third World War has happened, and a monkey is sitting on a rock taking a sunbath. And a female monkey comes with an apple and gives the apple to the monkey. And the monkey says, "My God, are we going to start it all over again?"
Homosexuality is condemned because there is every possibility, if it is not condemned, that many more people will turn towards it. The inner tendency is there in every person. In fact the person who is against it, the more he is against it, the more he has the tendency. Deep down, unconsciously, he knows it is there. To repress it he has to be very much against it. He feels disgusted by the very idea -- but nobody is telling him to become homosexual. But if others feel attracted, then it is not your business to interfere or to condemn them. It is their
freedom! And they are not doing any harm to anybody. It is a harmless game -- stupid, certainly, but not a sin.
But as far as stupidity is concerned all sex is stupid, for the simple reason that it is a biological urge and you are not the master of it, you are just a victim.
And you need not be so much worried about it because homosexuality has a very beautiful origin: it originated in the monasteries. It is something religious: The first homosexuals were monks and nuns -- Christian, Buddhist, Jaina, all great religions have contributed their
share to it. It was bound to be so because there are monasteries in existence even now where no woman has ever entered.
In a Catholic monastery in Europe in Mount Athos, for one thousand years no woman has entered; not even a six month-old girl has been allowed to enter. What kind of people are living there? A six month-old girl and
they are afraid even of that! What can they do? But repressing sex creates fear. So the whole monastery is full of men; and homosexuality is a natural byproduct if only boys are together or only girls are together.
Religious people have contributed greatly. Educationalists have contributed greatly, because boys have to be educated separately. They have to reside in different hostels specially for them and girls have to stay aloof in separate hostels, in separate schools.
If you put too many girls together they are bound to become lesbians, because when the sexual urge takes possession of them and they cannot find the boy, then anything is better than nothing...
Human society has been forced so much to live in unnatural circumstances -- and a monastery is one of the most unnatural circumstances. It is a zoo, a religious zoo. Homosexuality was born there, so you need not feel very bad about. You are a religious person! And you have a great
line of homosexuals...
If you look for homosexuals you will be surprised: many poets, many authors, many painters, many musicians, many dancers, many great people, many creative people, were homosexuals. Many Nobel prize-winners have been homosexuals.
And don't be worried about enlightenment either because at least one homosexual I know became enlightened -- Socrates; he was a homosexual. And there are suspicions about Jesus. I cannot prove it, they are only suspicions -- because he moved with boys always. Those twelve apostles... who knows? But if he was, nothing is wrong in it. Socrates
was certainly a homosexual, Plato was, Aristotle was. Greeks are great people...
Greeks have been homosexuals for centuries. All their great people have been homosexuals. So you need not worry -- you have a great history behind you!
Walt Whitman was a homosexual -- one of the greatest poets of all the ages. There seems to be something in homosexuality that makes people creative, or creative people are homosexuals. There is something in it and I can see where the point is. When you stop creating children, your
creativity takes new turns, new dimensions. You create poetry, you create painting.
And the people who have been condemning homosexuality for ages are also condemning it for one more thing. As far as man/woman relationship is concerned, it is always on the rocks, because man cannot understand the mind of the woman, the woman cannot understand the mind of man. They
are poles apart. That's their attraction, but that's also their conflict, constant conflict. If homosexuality is allowed, accepted, the fear is that many people will settle into homosexuality, because a man can understand the other man more easily -- they have the same mind.
And the women can understand each other more easily -- they have the same mind.
That's why homosexuals are called "gay" people. They are really gay! The heterosexuals look so sad. Whenever you see a couple, you can immediately know whether they are married or not. If they are looking dull and dead they are married. Marriage kills all joy for the simple reason that it creates so many conflicts.
Hence all societies have condemned it for the simple reason that if it is not condemned, what will happen to reproduction? In the past it had some meaning, but now it has no meaning.
Now the day has come when homosexuality can be accepted, should be accepted, as a natural outlet for your sexual energies. I am not against it -- I am not for it either. I am simply saying that if you have to live your sex you can choose your style, you are free to choose your style. If you decide to be stupid, at least you should be given
the freedom of what kind of stupid you want to be! I give you total freedom.
My effort here is to help you to go beyond it, so if you are homosexual you have to go beyond homosexuality, if you are heterosexual you have to go beyond heterosexuality. And there are other people who are neither, who are auto-erotic, auto-sexual. They have to go beyond their auto-eroticism.
Man has to transcend sex, whatsoever kind of sex it is, because unless you go beyond your biology you will never know your soul. But meanwhile -- before you go beyond -- it is your freedom to be whatsoever you want to be.
Don't make a problem out of it. Nothing has to be done about it. I don't tackle individual problems. My whole approach is that there are millions of diseases, but there is only one cure and that cure is meditation.
You meditate -- homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual... You meditate. Become more still and more silent. Create inner emptiness. Become more transparent. And then things will start changing. You will be able to see what you are doing to yourself. And if it is right you will go on doing it with more joy, with more totality, with more intensity, with
more passion. And if it is wrong it will simply drop, just like dead leaves falling from a tree.
So I cannot suggest any specific method because to me all the problems are arising because we have become minds and we have forgotten that deep down there is a space within us which can be called no-mind. Entering that space, no-mind, will give you perspective, vision, clarity.
Meditate. Sit silently watching your thoughts -- homosexual, heterosexual, whatsoever they are, it doesn't matter. You watch, you become the witness. Slowly slowly a distance will be created between you and your thoughts. And one day suddenly -- the realization that you are not your mind. And that day a revolution has happened within you. After that day you will never be the same again. A transcendence will
have happened. After that, whatsoever you do is right; you can't do wrong then. And before that, whatsoever you do is wrong.
So when I say I have nothing against homosexuality I am not supporting it, remember. I am not saying, "Be homosexual." I don't have anything against heterosexuality either, but I am not supporting heterosexuality. I am not supporting anything. These are all mind games. And you have
to go beyond all the games.
[The Book Of The Books, Vol.IX]
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 24 2006 at 10:35pm by jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
"I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life."
The problem here is that you're speaking of your right to choose to end not your own life, but that of another's. Don't for a moment bore me with the intellectually-deficient argument that a fetus isn't human life. Only in exceedingly rare circumstances do human females give birth to Zebras, or any other non-human species.
As a matter of fact, that sort of thing has never happened.
Life is human at the instant in which a male Homo-Sapien's seminal DNA staircase joins with that of the female counterpart of the same species. Any, every other dividing line (first trimester, second trimester, etc.) is an arbitrary creation of a calendar--and a left wing political agenda--with no regard to biological progressions and realities.-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 2:51pm by Thank you person who is playing God.
Glad to know that we don't need the Bible, our own minds, or any science to back up what you're saying. You must have a direct connection with the Allmighty that no one else does. I sincerely want to thank you for clarifying this issue of abortion. No need for discussion, no need for debate, we just need to look to you for your all knowing word. At least we believe you have it on authority from God, so you tell us. Can you give me his phone number so I can ask him myself? Or, do I need to go through you?
I presume that you'll be taking a fair share of the babies born who aren't aborted. That is if you really want to put your money where your hypocritical mouth is. Or perhaps your Church will make signifigant contributions to these women in need so they can take care of the ones you refuse to adopt. Better yet, how about you influencing your President to allocate more money for these impoverished women to take care of their unaborted babies. Oh, that's right I forgot you conservatives don't believe in welfare. So, it makes total sense. You tell someone not to do something and provide no realistic alternatives (or CHOICES). That's really helpful. Thanks for being such a good Christian to forwarn about this evil and for not taking any responsibility for it.
Sarcasm aside, who are YOU to say what is right or wrong to God? Who are any of us to say what is or isn't right to God? Instead of prostilitizing, why not look in your own backyard? Or, do you have to feel good about yourself by condemning others? So, sorry to bore you with this intellectually deficient argument. Please find it in your heart to forgive me. Or should I just ask you to ask Jesus to forgive me on my own behalf since you are so well connected.
James
"I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life."
The problem here is that you're speaking of your right to choose to end not your own life, but that of another's. Don't for a moment bore me with the intellectually-deficient argument that a fetus isn't human life. Only in exceedingly rare circumstances do human females give birth to Zebras, or any other non-human species.
As a matter of fact, that sort of thing has never happened.
Life is human at the instant in which a male Homo-Sapien's seminal DNA staircase joins with that of the female counterpart of the same species. Any, every other dividing line (first trimester, second trimester, etc.) is an arbitrary creation of a calendar--and a left wing political agenda--with no regard to biological progressions and realities.
[/quote]RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 22 2007 at 12:28pm by "Sarcasm aside, who are YOU to say what is right or wrong to God? Who are any of us to say what is or isn't right to God?"
We dont have to. He laid out for us in very plain language on what he deems acceptable, and what he does not deem acceptable in the Bible. Thats what Christians should base their beliefs on right and wrong on, and that alone.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 6:25pm by Ok look, the minute you become pregnant that child is alive. There is NO right for anyone to take a kids life....you sit there and you chastize women for killing kids that they have birthed and killed by microwave or of other sick and various ways but you believe in goverment funded killing...Well aren't you just jim dandy! The only difference between killing a child out of the womb is that its not goverment funded....You made your choice to open your legs and therefore its your bed you made now lay in it! However, for those considering rape victims, everything happens for a reason....you don't know who your killing when you decide its your right to kill a child...it could be the next rockstar, the next evangelist, the next president!!! But you don't give one rat's crap about that NOOOOO!!! its all about WHAT YOU WANT!
What God has made let no man touch AND THAT MEANS BABIES!!!!
Ok, same sex mariages...look, if it doesnt make a baby it wasnt meant to be....man + man DOES NOT = baby NEITHER DOES women + women!!!!
round peg does not go in a square hole...simple as that...
some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped...I know because most of my closest freinds who are gay have told me their stories...PEOPLE ARE NOT BORN GAY! It's a psychological change due to fear of the opposite sex...they are scared of the opposite sex for what happened to them in the past and they turn to the same sex for comfort....but what they do not understand is that that fear controls them and binds them...they are letting those memories and those people who abused them hold the key to their happiness around their neck...and those people need to gain control of themself STOP LYING TO THEMSELVES and snatch that key back from the people who took it....
Don't you dare call me untolerable!!! I tolerate much stuff and if you were to track my whole life from who I was to who I am now, you'd see that I am HIGHLY tolerable!!! What I CANT TOLERATE IS HOW PEOPLE LIE TO THEMSELVES AND BELIEVE THE LIES OF THE MEDIA...and what kills me is that people BELIEVE IN THEM AS IF THEY WEERE TRUE!!!!! Get into your bibles and get back with GOD and FIND THE TRUTH!
darkhorse1957 wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 10:35pm)
jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
"I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life."
The problem here is that you're speaking of your right to choose to end not your own life, but that of another's. Don't for a moment bore me with the intellectually-deficient argument that a fetus isn't human life. Only in exceedingly rare circumstances do human females give birth to Zebras, or any other non-human species.
As a matter of fact, that sort of thing has never happened.
Life is human at the instant in which a male Homo-Sapien's seminal DNA staircase joins with that of the female counterpart of the same species. Any, every other dividing line (first trimester, second trimester, etc.) is an arbitrary creation of a calendar--and a left wing political agenda--with no regard to biological progressions and realities.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 8:13pm by I am a very sexual being. I am turned on by images of women. I am not turned on by images of men. I believe God made me how I am.
It saddens me that these discussions are pretty much one-sided. But it doesn't surprise me.
A long-time friend from Texas was on a business trip in the area where I live. I picked him up at his hotel and we went out to dinner. It was around the time when gay and lesbian marriage was daily news on TV and in the newspapers because of what was happening in California, I think, San Francisco. I asked him what he thought. He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said, are you willing to admit that they are at least human? He said "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT." I tried to push it but he wouldn't budge.
I am pleased that a least a couple people have contributed who strongly believe that homosexuality is a choice and a bad choice, but I have yet to hear a real argument other than some oft repeated slogan that they have heard and are repeating.
"Some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped." Sorry, this doesn't get it. To ask a gay person why he is gay is like asking me why I am heterosexual. They can't know. They can only speculate, just like the rest of us speculate.
If you have read Leviticus, you know that there are many things in that book that simply do not apply today.
I like Jay's approach. You have to consider the whole bible not just some verses.
soulfire2190 wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 06:25pm)
Ok look, the minute you become pregnant that child is alive. There is NO right for anyone to take a kids life....you sit there and you chastize women for killing kids that they have birthed and killed by microwave or of other sick and various ways but you believe in goverment funded killing...Well aren't you just jim dandy! The only difference between killing a child out of the womb is that its not goverment funded....You made your choice to open your legs and therefore its your bed you made now lay in it! However, for those considering rape victims, everything happens for a reason....you don't know who your killing when you decide its your right to kill a child...it could be the next rockstar, the next evangelist, the next president!!! But you don't give one rat's crap about that NOOOOO!!! its all about WHAT YOU WANT!
What God has made let no man touch AND THAT MEANS BABIES!!!!
Ok, same sex mariages...look, if it doesnt make a baby it wasnt meant to be....man + man DOES NOT = baby NEITHER DOES women + women!!!!
round peg does not go in a square hole...simple as that...
some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped...I know because most of my closest freinds who are gay have told me their stories...PEOPLE ARE NOT BORN GAY! It's a psychological change due to fear of the opposite sex...they are scared of the opposite sex for what happened to them in the past and they turn to the same sex for comfort....but what they do not understand is that that fear controls them and binds them...they are letting those memories and those people who abused them hold the key to their happiness around their neck...and those people need to gain control of themself STOP LYING TO THEMSELVES and snatch that key back from the people who took it....
Don't you dare call me untolerable!!! I tolerate much stuff and if you were to track my whole life from who I was to who I am now, you'd see that I am HIGHLY tolerable!!! What I CANT TOLERATE IS HOW PEOPLE LIE TO THEMSELVES AND BELIEVE THE LIES OF THE MEDIA...and what kills me is that people BELIEVE IN THEM AS IF THEY WEERE TRUE!!!!! Get into your bibles and get back with GOD and FIND THE TRUTH!
darkhorse1957 wrote:
(Dec 24 2006 @ 10:35pm)
jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
"I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life."
The problem here is that you're speaking of your right to choose to end not your own life, but that of another's. Don't for a moment bore me with the intellectually-deficient argument that a fetus isn't human life. Only in exceedingly rare circumstances do human females give birth to Zebras, or any other non-human species.
As a matter of fact, that sort of thing has never happened.
Life is human at the instant in which a male Homo-Sapien's seminal DNA staircase joins with that of the female counterpart of the same species. Any, every other dividing line (first trimester, second trimester, etc.) is an arbitrary creation of a calendar--and a left wing political agenda--with no regard to biological progressions and realities.
-
My 2 cents Posted on Dec 26 2006 at 11:28pm by Hi,
I think being gay is kind of like choosing to have a tattoo. You choose to do it. I talk from experience. I had a homosexual experience. Jay I am glad you are open to discuss it. I think many Christians aren't. I also think many gay people aren't.
I wrote a book. Ch. 8 discusses the COC church stance on accepting homosexuality. It is available at www.christianradio.me.uk/tempfolder/OrderedKoran.zip [www.christianradio.me.uk] This file also includes The Koran and New and Old testament apocrypha for those interested.
Thanks. God Bless.
Aaron-
RE: My 2 cents Posted on Dec 28 2006 at 12:25pm by It is a choice...I know for a fact almost everyone has looked at the same sex. Whether it be a wish to be like that person, like a celebrity, with a "perfect" body and nice looks or in admirations of their sexual view...but you CHOOSE to act on those thoughts. And if you lust over them, you've already comitted the sin in your mind.
Matthew 5:28, "But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Its a CHOICE YOU CHOOSE, Its NOT predestined.
aaroncavanaugh2 wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 11:28pm)
Hi,
I think being gay is kind of like choosing to have a tattoo. You choose to do it. I talk from experience. I had a homosexual experience. Jay I am glad you are open to discuss it. I think many Christians aren't. I also think many gay people aren't.
I wrote a book. Ch. 8 discusses the COC church stance on accepting homosexuality. It is available at www.christianradio.me.uk/tempfolder/OrderedKoran.zip [www.christianradio.me.uk] This file also includes The Koran and New and Old testament apocrypha for those interested.
Thanks. God Bless.
Aaron
-
RE: My 2 cents Posted on Dec 28 2006 at 1:30pm by Then by that same logic you CHOOSE to be straight.
I am gay, and I know in my heart that I was born that way. I was raised in a very religious family, I didn't even know what homosexuality was but I had a crush on the girl across the street when I was ten. I've never felt the same way about boys as I have about girls.
And believe me, I tried to change who I was. I prayed and prayed and prayed when I was growing up for God to help me become straight, to take away the feelings I had towards my girl friends. It didn't happen. All my christian friends and family turned on me when I came out (at 17) and the church didn't want anything to do with me. I began to lose faith in God, because I didn't think that I could be a lesbian and still be a Christian.
I'm almost 20 now, and I'm just beginning to realize that God does love me even though I'm gay. And I thank Jay and Revolution Church for that.
soulfire2190 wrote:
(Dec 28 2006 @ 12:25pm)
It is a choice...I know for a fact almost everyone has looked at the same sex. Whether it be a wish to be like that person, like a celebrity, with a "perfect" body and nice looks or in admirations of their sexual view...but you CHOOSE to act on those thoughts. And if you lust over them, you've already comitted the sin in your mind.
Matthew 5:28, "But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Its a CHOICE YOU CHOOSE, Its NOT predestined.
aaroncavanaugh2 wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 11:28pm)
Hi,
I think being gay is kind of like choosing to have a tattoo. You choose to do it. I talk from experience. I had a homosexual experience. Jay I am glad you are open to discuss it. I think many Christians aren't. I also think many gay people aren't.
I wrote a book. Ch. 8 discusses the COC church stance on accepting homosexuality. It is available at www.christianradio.me.uk/tempfolder/OrderedKoran.zip [www.christianradio.me.uk] This file also includes The Koran and New and Old testament apocrypha for those interested.
Thanks. God Bless.
Aaron
RE: My 2 cents Posted on Jan 1 2007 at 9:56am by I am a 41 year old lesbian. I too was raised in a religous home. There was nothing in my childhood that caused me to be gay. I just remember being different as early as age 5. I was what you call a "tomboy". I just naturally rejected anything feminine for myself and I acted like a boy. Later as a teen I found myself attracted to girls. I tried to reject it because of my religion, but at age 20 I reflected on it and decided that this was the way God made me. So, I do beleive that many homosexuals are born that way.
However, I do believe there are others that may choose that path for various reasons. I take the attitude that since some people are born homosexual then it cannot be wrong. So, it should be acceptable for some to simply choose to be homosexual.
God created each of us to be unique. For some of us, we are born homosexual, for some it is simply a choice. It is more than sex. In fact, sex has very little to do with it, because like any other relationship the sex becomes less of an item over time. What it is really based on is love, trust, and committment... a bond. I only feel drawn to feel this love, to have that bond with another woman. It feels very natural to me. It hurts sometimes that others cannot understand and choose to judge me. But, I cannot and will not change my conviction that I am living my life the way it was intended.
-
-
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 22 2007 at 12:42pm by So what do you do with these verses from the New Testament?
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
or this one...
1 Corinthians 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.”
Please tell me how you rationalize or re-interpret what these verses say? So if you have to take what the entire Bible says about homosexuality, as you said, why does it discuss it in both the Old Testament and the New Testament in a very negative light and in both instances, commands that man not practice homosexuality?
[quote=epherrin] (Dec 26 2006 @ 08:13pm)
I am a very sexual being. I am turned on by images of women. I am not turned on by images of men. I believe God made me how I am.
It saddens me that these discussions are pretty much one-sided. But it doesn't surprise me.
A long-time friend from Texas was on a business trip in the area where I live. I picked him up at his hotel and we went out to dinner. It was around the time when gay and lesbian marriage was daily news on TV and in the newspapers because of what was happening in California, I think, San Francisco. I asked him what he thought. He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said, are you willing to admit that they are at least human? He said "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT." I tried to push it but he wouldn't budge.
I am pleased that a least a couple people have contributed who strongly believe that homosexuality is a choice and a bad choice, but I have yet to hear a real argument other than some oft repeated slogan that they have heard and are repeating.
"Some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped." Sorry, this doesn't get it. To ask a gay person why he is gay is like asking me why I am heterosexual. They can't know. They can only speculate, just like the rest of us speculate.
If you have read Leviticus, you know that there are many things in that book that simply do not apply today.
I like Jay's approach. You have to consider the whole bible not just some verses.-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 22 2007 at 5:05pm by Sorry...again, the bible has been rewritten..and along the way...man's influence has changed the interpretation....AGAIN...what about some of the other verses that are BLATANT that we do not adhere to today? Slavery, Polygamy, sex with girls...all ACCEPTABLE.
The authors of the Bible are authorities in matters of faith.
They can be trusted when they talk about God. But they should
not be considered the final authorities on sexual orientation any
more than they are the final authorities on space travel, gravity, or
the Internet.
Since the writers of Scripture are not the final authorities on
human sexuality, since they didn’t even know about sexual orientation
as we understand it today, since Jesus and the Jewish
prophets were silent about any kind of same-sex behavior, I am
persuaded that the Bible has nothing in it to approve or condemn homosexual orientation as we understand it.
Homosexual orientation wasn’t even
known until the 19th century. The discovery that some of us are created and/or shaped in our earliest infancy toward same-gender attraction was made in
the last 150 years. Biblical authors knew nothing about sexual orientation. Old Testament authors and Paul assumed all people
were created heterosexual, just as they believed the earth was flat,
that there were heavens above and hell below, and that the sun
moved up and down.
What does Romans 1:26–27 say about God?
In Romans 1:26–27 the apostle Paul describes
non-Jewish women who exchange “natural use for unnatural” and
non-Jewish men who “leave the natural use of women, working
shame with each other.”
This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex
with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that
practice. But let’s go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.
Paul is writing this letter to Rome
after his missionary tour of the
Mediterranean. On his journey Paul
had seen great temples built to
honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other
fertility gods and goddesses of sex
and passion instead of the one true
God the apostle honors. Apparently,
these priests and priestesses engaged
in some odd sexual behaviors—including castrating themselves,
carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young
temple prostitutes (male and female)—all to honor the gods of sex
and pleasure.
Sexual lust of ANY kind does not equal loving relationships of heterosexuals and homosexuals....1 Corithians...the word homosexual was added LATER...man's interpretaion..Jesus Christ NEVER uttered one word.
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
or this one...
1 Corinthians 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.”
Please tell me how you rationalize or re-interpret what these verses say? So if you have to take what the entire Bible says about homosexuality, as you said, why does it discuss it in both the Old Testament and the New Testament in a very negative light and in both instances, commands that man not practice homosexuality?
epherrin wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 08:13pm)
I am a very sexual being. I am turned on by images of women. I am not turned on by images of men. I believe God made me how I am.
It saddens me that these discussions are pretty much one-sided. But it doesn't surprise me.
A long-time friend from Texas was on a business trip in the area where I live. I picked him up at his hotel and we went out to dinner. It was around the time when gay and lesbian marriage was daily news on TV and in the newspapers because of what was happening in California, I think, San Francisco. I asked him what he thought. He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said, are you willing to admit that they are at least human? He said "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT." I tried to push it but he wouldn't budge.
I am pleased that a least a couple people have contributed who strongly believe that homosexuality is a choice and a bad choice, but I have yet to hear a real argument other than some oft repeated slogan that they have heard and are repeating.
"Some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped." Sorry, this doesn't get it. To ask a gay person why he is gay is like asking me why I am heterosexual. They can't know. They can only speculate, just like the rest of us speculate.
If you have read Leviticus, you know that there are many things in that book that simply do not apply today.
I like Jay's approach. You have to consider the whole bible not just some verses.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 22 2007 at 5:14pm by If the Bible has been rewritten and the interpretation changed by mans influence, then why should I believe anything else in the Bible? Why should I believe in the resurrection? As far as verses you are referring to on slavery and such - all need to be taken in the context that they were written, and to whom they were being written to.
As far as I am concerned, if you dont believe that the Bible is absolute truth - God's word breathed into man, than why would you claim to be a Christian? The Bible is the very basis of Christianity. If you are going to pick and choose what you want to believe is truth out of the Bible, then how do you believe any of the rest of it? I have never understood that. If I dont believe that the Bible is truth, because the Bible is the very basis/cornerstone of Christianity, then I can assure you that I would be a complete secularist/evolutionist and I wouldnt bother to darken the door of a church again - EVER. I would party all the time and become a complete hedonist.
I struggled with that for years. One of the most powerful books I ever read is "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell and it changed my life. I would never attack a homosexual personally, I think that all people deserve to be treated with respect no matter what their sexuality is, but from my standpoint, you cannot justify homosexuality if you believe in the Bible. Period.
jcisthelight619 wrote:
(Jan 22 2007 @ 05:05pm)
Sorry...again, the bible has been rewritten..and along the way...man's influence has changed the interpretation....AGAIN...what about some of the other verses that are BLATANT that we do not adhere to today? Slavery, Polygamy, sex with girls...all ACCEPTABLE.
The authors of the Bible are authorities in matters of faith.
They can be trusted when they talk about God. But they should
not be considered the final authorities on sexual orientation any
more than they are the final authorities on space travel, gravity, or
the Internet.
Since the writers of Scripture are not the final authorities on
human sexuality, since they didn’t even know about sexual orientation
as we understand it today, since Jesus and the Jewish
prophets were silent about any kind of same-sex behavior, I am
persuaded that the Bible has nothing in it to approve or condemn homosexual orientation as we understand it.
Homosexual orientation wasn’t even
known until the 19th century. The discovery that some of us are created and/or shaped in our earliest infancy toward same-gender attraction was made in
the last 150 years. Biblical authors knew nothing about sexual orientation. Old Testament authors and Paul assumed all people
were created heterosexual, just as they believed the earth was flat,
that there were heavens above and hell below, and that the sun
moved up and down.
What does Romans 1:26–27 say about God?
In Romans 1:26–27 the apostle Paul describes
non-Jewish women who exchange “natural use for unnatural” and
non-Jewish men who “leave the natural use of women, working
shame with each other.”
This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex
with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that
practice. But let’s go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.
Paul is writing this letter to Rome
after his missionary tour of the
Mediterranean. On his journey Paul
had seen great temples built to
honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other
fertility gods and goddesses of sex
and passion instead of the one true
God the apostle honors. Apparently,
these priests and priestesses engaged
in some odd sexual behaviors—including castrating themselves,
carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young
temple prostitutes (male and female)—all to honor the gods of sex
and pleasure.
Sexual lust of ANY kind does not equal loving relationships of heterosexuals and homosexuals....1 Corithians...the word homosexual was added LATER...man's interpretaion..Jesus Christ NEVER uttered one word.
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
or this one...
1 Corinthians 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.”
Please tell me how you rationalize or re-interpret what these verses say? So if you have to take what the entire Bible says about homosexuality, as you said, why does it discuss it in both the Old Testament and the New Testament in a very negative light and in both instances, commands that man not practice homosexuality?
epherrin wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 08:13pm)
I am a very sexual being. I am turned on by images of women. I am not turned on by images of men. I believe God made me how I am.
It saddens me that these discussions are pretty much one-sided. But it doesn't surprise me.
A long-time friend from Texas was on a business trip in the area where I live. I picked him up at his hotel and we went out to dinner. It was around the time when gay and lesbian marriage was daily news on TV and in the newspapers because of what was happening in California, I think, San Francisco. I asked him what he thought. He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said, are you willing to admit that they are at least human? He said "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT." I tried to push it but he wouldn't budge.
I am pleased that a least a couple people have contributed who strongly believe that homosexuality is a choice and a bad choice, but I have yet to hear a real argument other than some oft repeated slogan that they have heard and are repeating.
"Some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped." Sorry, this doesn't get it. To ask a gay person why he is gay is like asking me why I am heterosexual. They can't know. They can only speculate, just like the rest of us speculate.
If you have read Leviticus, you know that there are many things in that book that simply do not apply today.
I like Jay's approach. You have to consider the whole bible not just some verses.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 22 2007 at 5:20pm by Well, then you cannot justify having sex with a woman on her period...the bible condemns it - care to explain? You cannot justify polygamy...it's widely accepted - I mean why is it not practiced today?...I by far believe you can question the bible, but it does not mean you question Christ's message...and his message was certainly one without judgement. PERIOD.
seniorsun wrote:
(Jan 22 2007 @ 05:14pm)
If the Bible has been rewritten and the interpretation changed by mans influence, then why should I believe anything else in the Bible? Why should I believe in the resurrection? As far as verses you are referring to on slavery and such - all need to be taken in the context that they were written, and to whom they were being written to.
As far as I am concerned, if you dont believe that the Bible is absolute truth - God's word breathed into man, than why would you claim to be a Christian? The Bible is the very basis of Christianity. If you are going to pick and choose what you want to believe is truth out of the Bible, then how do you believe any of the rest of it? I have never understood that. If I dont believe that the Bible is truth, because the Bible is the very basis/cornerstone of Christianity, then I can assure you that I would be a complete secularist/evolutionist and I wouldnt bother to darken the door of a church again - EVER. I would party all the time and become a complete hedonist.
I struggled with that for years. One of the most powerful books I ever read is "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell and it changed my life. I would never attack a homosexual personally, I think that all people deserve to be treated with respect no matter what their sexuality is, but from my standpoint, you cannot justify homosexuality if you believe in the Bible. Period.
jcisthelight619 wrote:
(Jan 22 2007 @ 05:05pm)
Sorry...again, the bible has been rewritten..and along the way...man's influence has changed the interpretation....AGAIN...what about some of the other verses that are BLATANT that we do not adhere to today? Slavery, Polygamy, sex with girls...all ACCEPTABLE.
The authors of the Bible are authorities in matters of faith.
They can be trusted when they talk about God. But they should
not be considered the final authorities on sexual orientation any
more than they are the final authorities on space travel, gravity, or
the Internet.
Since the writers of Scripture are not the final authorities on
human sexuality, since they didn’t even know about sexual orientation
as we understand it today, since Jesus and the Jewish
prophets were silent about any kind of same-sex behavior, I am
persuaded that the Bible has nothing in it to approve or condemn homosexual orientation as we understand it.
Homosexual orientation wasn’t even
known until the 19th century. The discovery that some of us are created and/or shaped in our earliest infancy toward same-gender attraction was made in
the last 150 years. Biblical authors knew nothing about sexual orientation. Old Testament authors and Paul assumed all people
were created heterosexual, just as they believed the earth was flat,
that there were heavens above and hell below, and that the sun
moved up and down.
What does Romans 1:26–27 say about God?
In Romans 1:26–27 the apostle Paul describes
non-Jewish women who exchange “natural use for unnatural” and
non-Jewish men who “leave the natural use of women, working
shame with each other.”
This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex
with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that
practice. But let’s go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.
Paul is writing this letter to Rome
after his missionary tour of the
Mediterranean. On his journey Paul
had seen great temples built to
honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other
fertility gods and goddesses of sex
and passion instead of the one true
God the apostle honors. Apparently,
these priests and priestesses engaged
in some odd sexual behaviors—including castrating themselves,
carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young
temple prostitutes (male and female)—all to honor the gods of sex
and pleasure.
Sexual lust of ANY kind does not equal loving relationships of heterosexuals and homosexuals....1 Corithians...the word homosexual was added LATER...man's interpretaion..Jesus Christ NEVER uttered one word.
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
or this one...
1 Corinthians 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.”
Please tell me how you rationalize or re-interpret what these verses say? So if you have to take what the entire Bible says about homosexuality, as you said, why does it discuss it in both the Old Testament and the New Testament in a very negative light and in both instances, commands that man not practice homosexuality?
epherrin wrote:
(Dec 26 2006 @ 08:13pm)
I am a very sexual being. I am turned on by images of women. I am not turned on by images of men. I believe God made me how I am.
It saddens me that these discussions are pretty much one-sided. But it doesn't surprise me.
A long-time friend from Texas was on a business trip in the area where I live. I picked him up at his hotel and we went out to dinner. It was around the time when gay and lesbian marriage was daily news on TV and in the newspapers because of what was happening in California, I think, San Francisco. I asked him what he thought. He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said, are you willing to admit that they are at least human? He said "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT." I tried to push it but he wouldn't budge.
I am pleased that a least a couple people have contributed who strongly believe that homosexuality is a choice and a bad choice, but I have yet to hear a real argument other than some oft repeated slogan that they have heard and are repeating.
"Some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped." Sorry, this doesn't get it. To ask a gay person why he is gay is like asking me why I am heterosexual. They can't know. They can only speculate, just like the rest of us speculate.
If you have read Leviticus, you know that there are many things in that book that simply do not apply today.
I like Jay's approach. You have to consider the whole bible not just some verses.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Feb 24 2007 at 10:04am by How many times do I have to repeat this? The verses you are referring to are part of the ancient Jewish law in the Old Testament. It was never meant to apply to anyone other than those Jewish tribes in that ancient time.
You go ahead and question the Bible all you want. I certainly have. But it is the very FOUNDATION on which Christianity is built, and in my mind, you cannot separate the 2. You cannot call yourself a true Christian, and deny the truth of its foundation. Without the Bible, you have no message from Christ! I dont mean to ridicule you, but that statement you made I just find comical. Other than historical documentation, without the Bible, you have no message from Christ. His message is the Bible. And to say that his message was without judgement is just ludicrous. His message throughout the Bible is filled with judgements against sin, against human behaviour, against religeous leaders of thet time, against the government, against the world, against many things. You are quite wrong. Jesus was very judgemental in some areas, as we should be now. Thats right. I said it. We SHOULD BE judgemental against some things. I am judgemental against murder, against child rape, against the homosexual agenda, against Hollywood, who wants to do everything they can to make money, regardless of how many of our childrens' lives they ruin, against abortion and the doctors who practice it, against racial prejudice and the racist organizations in our country. I am proud to be judgemental against some things.
And I dont apologize for it.
jcisthelight619 wrote:
(Jan 22 2007 @ 05:20pm)
Well, then you cannot justify having sex with a woman on her period...the bible condemns it - care to explain? You cannot justify polygamy...it's widely accepted - I mean why is it not practiced today?...I by far believe you can question the bible, but it does not mean you question Christ's message...and his message was certainly one without judgement. PERIOD.
seniorsun wrote:
(Jan 22 2007 @ 05:14pm)
If the Bible has been rewritten and the interpretation changed by mans influence, then why should I believe anything else in the Bible? Why should I believe in the resurrection? As far as verses you are referring to on slavery and such - all need to be taken in the context that they were written, and to whom they were being written to.
As far as I am concerned, if you dont believe that the Bible is absolute truth - God's word breathed into man, than why would you claim to be a Christian? The Bible is the very basis of Christianity. If you are going to pick and choose what you want to believe is truth out of the Bible, then how do you believe any of the rest of it? I have never understood that. If I dont believe that the Bible is truth, because the Bible is the very basis/cornerstone of Christianity, then I can assure you that I would be a complete secularist/evolutionist and I wouldnt bother to darken the door of a church again - EVER. I would party all the time and become a complete hedonist.
I struggled with that for years. One of the most powerful books I ever read is "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell and it changed my life. I would never attack a homosexual personally, I think that all people deserve to be treated with respect no matter what their sexuality is, but from my standpoint, you cannot justify homosexuality if you believe in the Bible. Period.
jcisthelight619 wrote:
(Jan 22 2007 @ 05:05pm)
Sorry...again, the bible has been rewritten..and along the way...man's influence has changed the interpretation....AGAIN...what about some of the other verses that are BLATANT that we do not adhere to today? Slavery, Polygamy, sex with girls...all ACCEPTABLE.
The authors of the Bible are authorities in matters of faith.
They can be trusted when they talk about God. But they should
not be considered the final authorities on sexual orientation any
more than they are the final authorities on space travel, gravity, or
the Internet.
Since the writers of Scripture are not the final authorities on
human sexuality, since they didn’t even know about sexual orientation
as we understand it today, since Jesus and the Jewish
prophets were silent about any kind of same-sex behavior, I am
persuaded that the Bible has nothing in it to approve or condemn homosexual orientation as we understand it.
Homosexual orientation wasn’t even
known until the 19th century. The discovery that some of us are created and/or shaped in our earliest infancy toward same-gender attraction was made in
the last 150 years. Biblical authors knew nothing about sexual orientation. Old Testament authors and Paul assumed all people
were created heterosexual, just as they believed the earth was flat,
that there were heavens above and hell below, and that the sun
moved up and down.
What does Romans 1:26–27 say about God?
In Romans 1:26–27 the apostle Paul describes
non-Jewish women who exchange “natural use for unnatural” and
non-Jewish men who “leave the natural use of women, working
shame with each other.”
This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex
with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that
practice. But let’s go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.
Paul is writing this letter to Rome
after his missionary tour of the
Mediterranean. On his journey Paul
had seen great temples built to
honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other
fertility gods and goddesses of sex
and passion instead of the one true
God the apostle honors. Apparently,
these priests and priestesses engaged
in some odd sexual behaviors—including castrating themselves,
carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young
temple prostitutes (male and female)—all to honor the gods of sex
and pleasure.
Sexual lust of ANY kind does not equal loving relationships of heterosexuals and homosexuals....1 Corithians...the word homosexual was added LATER...man's interpretaion..Jesus Christ NEVER uttered one word.
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
or this one...
1 Corinthians 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.”
Please tell me how you rationalize or re-interpret what these verses say? So if you have to take what the entire Bible says about homosexuality, as you said, why does it discuss it in both the Old Testament and the New Testament in a very negative light and in both instances, commands that man not practice homosexuality?
[quote=epherrin] (Dec 26 2006 @ 08:13pm)
I am a very sexual being. I am turned on by images of women. I am not turned on by images of men. I believe God made me how I am.
It saddens me that these discussions are pretty much one-sided. But it doesn't surprise me.
A long-time friend from Texas was on a business trip in the area where I live. I picked him up at his hotel and we went out to dinner. It was around the time when gay and lesbian marriage was daily news on TV and in the newspapers because of what was happening in California, I think, San Francisco. I asked him what he thought. He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said, are you willing to admit that they are at least human? He said "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT." I tried to push it but he wouldn't budge.
I am pleased that a least a couple people have contributed who strongly believe that homosexuality is a choice and a bad choice, but I have yet to hear a real argument other than some oft repeated slogan that they have heard and are repeating.
"Some people become gay because they have been sexually abused or raped." Sorry, this doesn't get it. To ask a gay person why he is gay is like asking me why I am heterosexual. They can't know. They can only speculate, just like the rest of us speculate.
If you have read Leviticus, you know that there are many things in that book that simply do not apply today.
I like Jay's approach. You have to consider the whole bible not just some verses.
[/quote]
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 12 2007 at 1:30pm by Wasn't sodom and gammorah destroyed in the bible? Thats probably spelled wrong. My point is simple. What I am seeing is that people have convinced themselves that being gay is not a choice and use that to say that it must be acceptable to God since he created you that way. Sounds like circular reasoning and could be used to make any type of sin okay. Your taking something that isn't a fact (being born gay) and using it to say that something is a fact ( God being cool with it). I believe that being gay is a sin just like a lot of other things in the world like, murder, lying, and what ever else may be a commandment along with blaspheming the holy spirit. On one hand I do accept gays and what they do with their lives, whether marraige or whatever (which would have been smarter for jay to say, I think) . But I can't go out saying that it is okay for them to continue living their lives in sin! By saying that I would marry them as a pastor or promote their choice I am forgoing what I get from the Holy Spirit and the Bible as a sinful action and am therefore sinning myself by not saying anything to them. If someone was murdering people and I didn't say that it was wrong or try to do anything about it I would be sinning myself in a way. The Bible clearly says that to commit murder is a sin. And maybe not directly( not sure) but I think it says the same about men sleeping with men and women vice versa( they began to burn with passion for people of the same sex and animals and were destroyed by God for it?) I'd have to look it up . I feel a deep sense of love and compassion for every single person in the human race so please don't take this as a hate message. I thought it very wrong for jays dad to excommunicated like that or anyone else for that matter. The answer is love and commitment despite any shortcomings in the sinful nature because I screw up a LOT too and want to be forgiven just like anyone else. -
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 12 2007 at 5:16pm by I suggest you check out your hermeneutics (scripture interpretation) Sodom and Gommorah were not destroyed for anything close to loving homosexual relationships! Read the text. The same sex violation was gang rape, and the fact that every man in the city was participating makes it clear the subject has nothing to do with sexual orientation or same sex relationships. Don't follow the path you have been fed -- read the text yourself.
Furthermore, if you read the scant few texts that might be interpreted according to your line of thought and do some study into the original languages and words... you will find that all but one leave you with NO case whatsoever against loving gay relationships. It just isn't there. The passage is Romans 1 may be worthy of discussion and we might even draw different conclusions there.
I'm confident you don't believe me, based on your post -- and I urge you to contact Tony Campollo (you can find him on the web). He and his wife are well know evangelical leaders who debate this topic thoroughly on a recording they will send you for free. They do not draw the same conclusions, although both agree that it is disturbing that a disagreement on scripture interpretation among Christians -- on such a minor topic in the Bible -- is such a point of vicious division.
For instance: IF I believe that, under certain circumstances, divorce may be permissible -- I will have a HUGE problem justifying that against the words of Jesus. There are a myriad of scriptures that speak to this. Nevertheless, even Christians who disagree with me do not often deny fellowship to divorced Christians. Why are we different when it comes to homosexuality? Its ludicrous!
GET THE DEBATE FROM TONY CAMPOLO! You owe it to yourself and to the integrity of your faith and vocal position on this.
Mark
luke wrote:
(Jan 12 2007 @ 01:30pm)
Wasn't sodom and gammorah destroyed in the bible? Thats probably spelled wrong. My point is simple. What I am seeing is that people have convinced themselves that being gay is not a choice and use that to say that it must be acceptable to God since he created you that way. Sounds like circular reasoning and could be used to make any type of sin okay. Your taking something that isn't a fact (being born gay) and using it to say that something is a fact ( God being cool with it). I believe that being gay is a sin just like a lot of other things in the world like, murder, lying, and what ever else may be a commandment along with blaspheming the holy spirit. On one hand I do accept gays and what they do with their lives, whether marraige or whatever (which would have been smarter for jay to say, I think) . But I can't go out saying that it is okay for them to continue living their lives in sin! By saying that I would marry them as a pastor or promote their choice I am forgoing what I get from the Holy Spirit and the Bible as a sinful action and am therefore sinning myself by not saying anything to them. If someone was murdering people and I didn't say that it was wrong or try to do anything about it I would be sinning myself in a way. The Bible clearly says that to commit murder is a sin. And maybe not directly( not sure) but I think it says the same about men sleeping with men and women vice versa( they began to burn with passion for people of the same sex and animals and were destroyed by God for it?) I'd have to look it up . I feel a deep sense of love and compassion for every single person in the human race so please don't take this as a hate message. I thought it very wrong for jays dad to excommunicated like that or anyone else for that matter. The answer is love and commitment despite any shortcomings in the sinful nature because I screw up a LOT too and want to be forgiven just like anyone else.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 12 2007 at 8:34pm by Actually, the hermeneutics on sodom and gomorrah confirm exactly what is written in my Bible. Check out the biblical account of sodom and gomorrah in Genesis 19, starting with verse 1: "And there came two angels to sodom at even, and Lot sat in the gate at sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. And He said, 'Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servants house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and you shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, No; but we will abide in the streets all night. And he pressed upon them greatly, and they turned in to him, and etered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: and they called to Lot, and said to him, Where are the men which came in to you last night? bring them out to us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door to them, and shut the door after him, and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out to you, and do to them as is good in your eyes, only to these men do nothing: for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now we will deal worse with you, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. And the men said to Lot, Have you any here besides? son in law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whatsoever you have in the city, bring them out of this place, for we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great against the Lord; and the Lord has sent us to destroy it..."
This is in agreement with the new testament, which has this to say... "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire..."
No one needs to run to one of the few preachers who try to prove otherwise. There are hundreds of local pastors right in your local area who have given there lives to serve the Lord, which will tell you plainly that this lifestyle is wrong and should be repented of, based on the clarity of the scriptures, and the basic knowledge of right and wrong that God has written on every human heart through conscience. It's interesting that Paul, speaking to Timothy, said that "the time will come where men will not endure sound doctrine; but after there own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth...." (2nd Timothy 4:3-4)
The reason we need a savior is because God's standard is perfection. We have all broken God's law...we've lied, stolen, lusted, coveted, used God's name in vain (despite our sexual orientation) and are condemned under God's law to death. This is because God, although a loving God, is also a just God who, by his very nature, must punish sin. This put man in a terrible predicament: if we stand before God on the day of judgment being found a lawbreaker, our just punishment is the second death (hell). But God loves us, and doesn't want this for us. So, out of his love, He provided a way of escape through Jesus. Jesus lived a sinless life, thereby satisfying the righteous requirements of the Law. Then he satisfied the justice side of God by taking our punishment on the cross. The innocent (Jesus) died in place of the guilty (you and I), satisfying God's justice and wrath against sin. If we repent and put our trust in Jesus, God's justice will pass over you....you won't be condemned, on the basis that Jesus took the punishment you deserved. What an awesome and loving God. Friends, we will never be able to get away from God's clear call to repent of sin, and trust in his Son. I'm glad there are some on this message board that love you enough to warn you. "And the times of ignorance God winked at, but now commands all men everywhere to repent: because He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man who He has ordained..." (Acts 17:30-31) There are so many scriptures all across this board that testify that God calls us to repentance, and faith in Christ. He wants to forgive you and give you eternal life, but you must make your peace with God on His terms, not your own. He's God..He calls the shots...He determins the way of salvation. Please take God at his word....repent, and put your trust in Christ. Jesus said the same thing about salvation, and I'm sure you wouldn't accuse him of being hateful. He cared enough about people to warn them (Luke 13:3, Matthew 7:21-23). I hope you can see my motive for writing, but I know I can't control that. I wish you the best.
mark.pierpont wrote:
(Jan 12 2007 @ 05:16pm)
I suggest you check out your hermeneutics (scripture interpretation) Sodom and Gommorah were not destroyed for anything close to loving homosexual relationships! Read the text. The same sex violation was gang rape, and the fact that every man in the city was participating makes it clear the subject has nothing to do with sexual orientation or same sex relationships. Don't follow the path you have been fed -- read the text yourself.
Furthermore, if you read the scant few texts that might be interpreted according to your line of thought and do some study into the original languages and words... you will find that all but one leave you with NO case whatsoever against loving gay relationships. It just isn't there. The passage is Romans 1 may be worthy of discussion and we might even draw different conclusions there.
I'm confident you don't believe me, based on your post -- and I urge you to contact Tony Campollo (you can find him on the web). He and his wife are well know evangelical leaders who debate this topic thoroughly on a recording they will send you for free. They do not draw the same conclusions, although both agree that it is disturbing that a disagreement on scripture interpretation among Christians -- on such a minor topic in the Bible -- is such a point of vicious division.
For instance: IF I believe that, under certain circumstances, divorce may be permissible -- I will have a HUGE problem justifying that against the words of Jesus. There are a myriad of scriptures that speak to this. Nevertheless, even Christians who disagree with me do not often deny fellowship to divorced Christians. Why are we different when it comes to homosexuality? Its ludicrous!
GET THE DEBATE FROM TONY CAMPOLO! You owe it to yourself and to the integrity of your faith and vocal position on this.
Mark
luke wrote:
(Jan 12 2007 @ 01:30pm)
Wasn't sodom and gammorah destroyed in the bible? Thats probably spelled wrong. My point is simple. What I am seeing is that people have convinced themselves that being gay is not a choice and use that to say that it must be acceptable to God since he created you that way. Sounds like circular reasoning and could be used to make any type of sin okay. Your taking something that isn't a fact (being born gay) and using it to say that something is a fact ( God being cool with it). I believe that being gay is a sin just like a lot of other things in the world like, murder, lying, and what ever else may be a commandment along with blaspheming the holy spirit. On one hand I do accept gays and what they do with their lives, whether marraige or whatever (which would have been smarter for jay to say, I think) . But I can't go out saying that it is okay for them to continue living their lives in sin! By saying that I would marry them as a pastor or promote their choice I am forgoing what I get from the Holy Spirit and the Bible as a sinful action and am therefore sinning myself by not saying anything to them. If someone was murdering people and I didn't say that it was wrong or try to do anything about it I would be sinning myself in a way. The Bible clearly says that to commit murder is a sin. And maybe not directly( not sure) but I think it says the same about men sleeping with men and women vice versa( they began to burn with passion for people of the same sex and animals and were destroyed by God for it?) I'd have to look it up . I feel a deep sense of love and compassion for every single person in the human race so please don't take this as a hate message. I thought it very wrong for jays dad to excommunicated like that or anyone else for that matter. The answer is love and commitment despite any shortcomings in the sinful nature because I screw up a LOT too and want to be forgiven just like anyone else.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 13 2007 at 2:55am by This last post contains in it the basics of orthodox, biblical Christianity. Sinners need a savior, not only to love them, but to save them from the judgment of sin that is God's only choice, since His very nature will not allow him to countenance sin. Thus, without the perfect life of Christ to fulfill the law we could not fulfill, and to qualify him as the unblemished sacrificial lamb, AND without the sacrificial death of Christ to satisfy the price of our sin so we would not have to, there would be no salvation for men.
So, a really valid question is whether those who are arguing for inclusion of homosexuals in church membership agree with these basic doctrines. If they do not, then we can argue all day and get nowhere because, essentially, the two groups are members of two different religions and are actually arguing the merits of their different religions rather than how to be practitioners of one unified religion.
Now, if we do agree on the basics of the faith as they have been given us by the apostles, then we must begin to discuss how to get rid of the lack of love and acceptance, the rampant hypocrisy and spiritual pride (so many have no grasp of the phrase "there but for the grace of god go i), the truly repugnant self-righteousness of so many, and yet retain the truth that God does not approve of sin and wants people to stop sinning. The basic pattern seems to be that people on this board are saying that we should leave it to God to get that part of the message across. But that leaves us with a quandary... when people ask us how to get to Christ, how to be saved, we cannot even quote Jesus' own answer to that question, because he often answered, "repent, and sin no more," and "if you love me, keep my commandments." Or, like he told the crowd who asked him why the tower fell and killed several dozen people, "do you think any of you are any better than them? do you think that they were guilty of some special set of sins that this should happen to them? no, I tell you, repent lest you likewise perish." Wow, what if that's what we said to people on September 11th, 2001? What if we just did what Jesus would do and told people that message? Would we be considered unloving? If so, does that mean Jesus was insensitive and unloving when he said it?
Well, I feel like I've pulled the pin and dropped a small grenade in here, along with the previous poster, and that all kinds of hell will break loose and we'll be called some choice names. I hope not, but we'll see.
By the way, I'd really like to hear from some of you on what you think about the idea of propitiation in relation to the wrath of god. Is that something else we've just misinterpreted into the bible, or is it really there? If it is there, what's it there for? (See Romans 3, Hebrews 2, 1 John 2, and 1 John 4 -- if the word "propitiation isn't in your version, it is in older ones, and it is in the Greek).-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 13 2007 at 8:20am by No one will call you choice names. At least I will not.
Nevertheless, I think you miss the entire point. in the words of Jesus, "You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel." The scriptural arguement against loving same sex relationships is weak at best, and once you sift through the translations and mistranslations in the few New Testament references, you are left with only one passage (Romans 1) worthy of serious discussion. One passage. Now that is not to say we should throw the discussion out. But what are we discussing? Whether same sex behavior is pleasing to God, and part of his Holy intent? Are we discussing it like we would any other behavior?
Unlike this subject, the scripture is relentless(and Jesus himself spoke strongly) on the subject of divorce. Nevertheless, we somehow find a place for divorced people in our fellowship, and do not conclude that they have no place at the table. Even if we disagree with their doctrine or theology, we welcome people who are divorced and agree to disagree. We do not hinge salvation on this doctrine -- at least not usually.
Why, then, is the issue of same sex relationships turned into a justification to shut people out of fellowship? People who do this are so ignorant of the whole person. Many gay people thirst after God with the same or greater passion than many heterosexual Christians. If we are in error, we trust that God will show us. We do not read the scriptures taken to reference homosexuality (and few they be)with the same conclusions as you.
You conclude that we are in sin, and outside of God. Is this also your conclusion for the overweight food addict (glutton)? The Bible is more clear about that than the few dubious references used to condemn loving same sex relationships.
Do you allow the obese to join you in worship -- the glutton?
Do you allow the man or woman who questions the veracity of ressurection of Christ to sit with you? Do you deny that man or woman honor and respect as a Christian?
Perhaps you should. They deny the fundamental, crucial aspects of our faith. But instead, you offer them more honor and respect in your congregations than you offer the devout homosexual, who is humbly seeking the face of Jesus alone.
Why is there such fierce hatred against something of which the Bible says so very little? What makes this so black-and-white, while greater subjects are passed as gray? Who are we to speak so grandly on a subject which Jesus himself declined to speak.
He did not utter one single word about this. Perhaps we should do the same, and instead welcome all men and woman with a bold, "Whosoever will may come!"
mark wrote:
(Jan 13 2007 @ 02:55am)
This last post contains in it the basics of orthodox, biblical Christianity. Sinners need a savior, not only to love them, but to save them from the judgment of sin that is God's only choice, since His very nature will not allow him to countenance sin. Thus, without the perfect life of Christ to fulfill the law we could not fulfill, and to qualify him as the unblemished sacrificial lamb, AND without the sacrificial death of Christ to satisfy the price of our sin so we would not have to, there would be no salvation for men.
So, a really valid question is whether those who are arguing for inclusion of homosexuals in church membership agree with these basic doctrines. If they do not, then we can argue all day and get nowhere because, essentially, the two groups are members of two different religions and are actually arguing the merits of their different religions rather than how to be practitioners of one unified religion.
Now, if we do agree on the basics of the faith as they have been given us by the apostles, then we must begin to discuss how to get rid of the lack of love and acceptance, the rampant hypocrisy and spiritual pride (so many have no grasp of the phrase "there but for the grace of god go i), the truly repugnant self-righteousness of so many, and yet retain the truth that God does not approve of sin and wants people to stop sinning. The basic pattern seems to be that people on this board are saying that we should leave it to God to get that part of the message across. But that leaves us with a quandary... when people ask us how to get to Christ, how to be saved, we cannot even quote Jesus' own answer to that question, because he often answered, "repent, and sin no more," and "if you love me, keep my commandments." Or, like he told the crowd who asked him why the tower fell and killed several dozen people, "do you think any of you are any better than them? do you think that they were guilty of some special set of sins that this should happen to them? no, I tell you, repent lest you likewise perish." Wow, what if that's what we said to people on September 11th, 2001? What if we just did what Jesus would do and told people that message? Would we be considered unloving? If so, does that mean Jesus was insensitive and unloving when he said it?
Well, I feel like I've pulled the pin and dropped a small grenade in here, along with the previous poster, and that all kinds of hell will break loose and we'll be called some choice names. I hope not, but we'll see.
By the way, I'd really like to hear from some of you on what you think about the idea of propitiation in relation to the wrath of god. Is that something else we've just misinterpreted into the bible, or is it really there? If it is there, what's it there for? (See Romans 3, Hebrews 2, 1 John 2, and 1 John 4 -- if the word "propitiation isn't in your version, it is in older ones, and it is in the Greek).
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 15 2007 at 11:13am by Somehow some have gotten the idea that I said that gay and homosexuals weren't allowed in church? You should go back and read my post again. I think that the one place that SHOULD be totally inviting them in is the church. I don't think that the church should affirm their behavior, as it is a sin. Now, it would be hard for them to attend a church that says, your behavior is wrong, just as if they were committing murder and the people in the church said, yo man thats not right you gotta stop. That is why so many people feel rejected from the church. It is a big problem with the church as I see it. We need to accept but not affirm. By allowing pastors to marry we are affirming and that is wrong. I have no problem with accepting you into the body of Christ but I can't just forget about the fact that you are living in sin. That topic would come up in all our conversations and would not allow you to be very friendly with me until you admitted that it was a problem. Admitting that it is a sin is all that God wants from you. -
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 19 2007 at 4:06pm by Again, Luke, you miss the point. You say: homosexuality is sin. I say: God says my relationship with my partner of 9+ years is the gift of God and a manifestation of God's glory. I celebrate and worship in that faith and experience.
Who set you or anyone else as the arbitrator of what is sin, and what sins are serious enough to make them a second class Christian (i.e., living in sin)? Even if you believe this is sin based on YOUR interpretation of few and dubious passages, do you also say that someone who is obese cannot be a pastor? If you think they are a glutton, and you believe that is living in sin, are they also disqulaified? I dare say we would have thousands upon thousands of churches without pastors if we were to take that stand! Or how about divorced pastors? Why aren't we talking about that?
Don't you see my point? The Bible is not clear on this subject, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion
and should follow your conviction. However, to single out one "sin" seems quite hypocritical to me.
Furthermore, I would not feel welcome in any church where the people considered me "a sinner" because of the loving relationship I share. (as if any of us do not fall short of the glory. Ahh -- but I forgot, only the really bad sins keep us from the inner circle...)
My idea of gathering with believers for worship is to share and revel in our freedom from shame and living experience with Christ. Your idea suggests that I am welcome where shame still rules. That, to me, is not the church that Jesus came to build.
luke wrote:
(Jan 15 2007 @ 11:13am)
Somehow some have gotten the idea that I said that gay and homosexuals weren't allowed in church? You should go back and read my post again. I think that the one place that SHOULD be totally inviting them in is the church. I don't think that the church should affirm their behavior, as it is a sin. Now, it would be hard for them to attend a church that says, your behavior is wrong, just as if they were committing murder and the people in the church said, yo man thats not right you gotta stop. That is why so many people feel rejected from the church. It is a big problem with the church as I see it. We need to accept but not affirm. By allowing pastors to marry we are affirming and that is wrong. I have no problem with accepting you into the body of Christ but I can't just forget about the fact that you are living in sin. That topic would come up in all our conversations and would not allow you to be very friendly with me until you admitted that it was a problem. Admitting that it is a sin is all that God wants from you.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 19 2007 at 5:04pm by Thank you, Mark. You are right....I get sick of everyone clumping people who are in loving relationships in the same pile with murderers, pedophiles, the list goes on. But, those that have that view will stand strong - as we will with what we feel in our hearts and our interpretation of Christ's love. We can duke it out over this subject all we want - but coming from a long line of fundamentalists - no matter how many times you try to talk this subject into resolution, there will never any. I listened to Jay's podcast last night - his sermon on Jan 7th..it talked about just this...that it is so easy to let this divide us...certain subjects of the bible that people do not agree on - believe me, I have been on this board and let it get the best of me or have heated discussions with my own family who are fundamentalist and interpret things totally different than others(including me). I have become so offended that it times I did not know how to have a relationship with them - to be honest..as others may find it hard to love homosexuals, accept them, welcome them...I struggle with my family and other fundamentalists...it's much easier to build the walls and turn your back. But, I was Jay reminded me in his Podcast...as hard as it is...we must stand strong on how Christ affects our hearts, but must also say, "we have to agree we disagree....if you cannot respect me with that, then I supposed it is a hopeless situation"....but I do believe that I have at times on this board been too heated, when I should have reached for Christ's love and understanding - and just said, "you will believe what you will, but I still care about you"...that's really hard to do....a lesson I am learning. Jay made it clear that others in his church do not take his stand on homosexuality, but he still loves them and prays for them...and I suppose as I pray for fundamentalists who anger me...I can only ask to be prayed for in return.
mark.pierpont wrote:
(Jan 19 2007 @ 04:06pm)
Again, Luke, you miss the point. You say: homosexuality is sin. I say: God says my relationship with my partner of 9+ years is the gift of God and a manifestation of God's glory. I celebrate and worship in that faith and experience.
Who set you or anyone else as the arbitrator of what is sin, and what sins are serious enough to make them a second class Christian (i.e., living in sin)? Even if you believe this is sin based on YOUR interpretation of few and dubious passages, do you also say that someone who is obese cannot be a pastor? If you think they are a glutton, and you believe that is living in sin, are they also disqulaified? I dare say we would have thousands upon thousands of churches without pastors if we were to take that stand! Or how about divorced pastors? Why aren't we talking about that?
Don't you see my point? The Bible is not clear on this subject, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion
and should follow your conviction. However, to single out one "sin" seems quite hypocritical to me.
Furthermore, I would not feel welcome in any church where the people considered me "a sinner" because of the loving relationship I share. (as if any of us do not fall short of the glory. Ahh -- but I forgot, only the really bad sins keep us from the inner circle...)
My idea of gathering with believers for worship is to share and revel in our freedom from shame and living experience with Christ. Your idea suggests that I am welcome where shame still rules. That, to me, is not the church that Jesus came to build.
luke wrote:
(Jan 15 2007 @ 11:13am)
Somehow some have gotten the idea that I said that gay and homosexuals weren't allowed in church? You should go back and read my post again. I think that the one place that SHOULD be totally inviting them in is the church. I don't think that the church should affirm their behavior, as it is a sin. Now, it would be hard for them to attend a church that says, your behavior is wrong, just as if they were committing murder and the people in the church said, yo man thats not right you gotta stop. That is why so many people feel rejected from the church. It is a big problem with the church as I see it. We need to accept but not affirm. By allowing pastors to marry we are affirming and that is wrong. I have no problem with accepting you into the body of Christ but I can't just forget about the fact that you are living in sin. That topic would come up in all our conversations and would not allow you to be very friendly with me until you admitted that it was a problem. Admitting that it is a sin is all that God wants from you.
-
-
-
-
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 17 2007 at 12:01am by Whether you spell things out of the Bible correctly or not, if you have never actually sat down and read the Bible (ie: the story of Soddom and Gomorah) then whatever you say about the Bible or the story of Soddom and Gomorah, and homosexuality as it is addressed in the Bible is automatically discredited.
Stop swollowing whole what your preacher says and actually look it up for yourself!
Seriously, it makes me so angry when people quote some crap from the Bible which they've never actually read and try to use it to condemn people.
It's like those people who think that "God helps those who help themselves." is actually scripiture and they will QUOTE that scripture! Like it's the honest to God truth! They believe it!
Just like you believe that Soddom and Gomorah was destroyed because a bunch of Queens and Dykes were loving up on each other.
I think the reason why that lie was invented is because so many more people are guilty of the sins for which Soddom and Gomorah were actually destroyed.
Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!
luke wrote:
(Jan 12 2007 @ 01:30pm)
Wasn't sodom and gammorah destroyed in the bible? Thats probably spelled wrong. My point is simple. What I am seeing is that people have convinced themselves that being gay is not a choice and use that to say that it must be acceptable to God since he created you that way. Sounds like circular reasoning and could be used to make any type of sin okay. Your taking something that isn't a fact (being born gay) and using it to say that something is a fact ( God being cool with it). I believe that being gay is a sin just like a lot of other things in the world like, murder, lying, and what ever else may be a commandment along with blaspheming the holy spirit. On one hand I do accept gays and what they do with their lives, whether marraige or whatever (which would have been smarter for jay to say, I think) . But I can't go out saying that it is okay for them to continue living their lives in sin! By saying that I would marry them as a pastor or promote their choice I am forgoing what I get from the Holy Spirit and the Bible as a sinful action and am therefore sinning myself by not saying anything to them. If someone was murdering people and I didn't say that it was wrong or try to do anything about it I would be sinning myself in a way. The Bible clearly says that to commit murder is a sin. And maybe not directly( not sure) but I think it says the same about men sleeping with men and women vice versa( they began to burn with passion for people of the same sex and animals and were destroyed by God for it?) I'd have to look it up . I feel a deep sense of love and compassion for every single person in the human race so please don't take this as a hate message. I thought it very wrong for jays dad to excommunicated like that or anyone else for that matter. The answer is love and commitment despite any shortcomings in the sinful nature because I screw up a LOT too and want to be forgiven just like anyone else.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Jan 13 2007 at 6:38pm by jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Feb 2 2007 at 10:53am by jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Feb 2 2007 at 10:54am by dmartinis wrote:
(Feb 02 2007 @ 10:53am)
jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Feb 19 2007 at 9:02pm by jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
My name is Barbara but since I moved out West, I prefer Calamity Babs. I agree with my ex-Baptist friend here that instead of being preched AT, we go on our personal spiritual journeys ourselves (and are accountable to God for our tolerance and accepting our brothers and sisters here on Earth.)
However, I'm not so sure about the transgendered or transvestite groups who feel they can easily change their born sex by clothes or an operation!
It took me 40 years to accept who I was born as, a gay woman! So no lists of Bible passages are going to convince me otherwise since Jay Baker is right that this was wrong! 2,000 years of bad translations by hostile old men who wanted to alter the words of God into their own versions of 'truth.' Was it really God who said we should sell our children to neighboring tribes and not plant different crops in the same fields? Hardly! And in Deutoronomy it says that women should not wear men's clothes or suffer by death their transgressions? That was how the Catholic Church executed Joan d' Arc from that verse but later made her a Saint! There were no women- made suits of armour back then so it was hardly Joan's fault! And if God is perfect in all things, and I believe He/She is, then when a big-boned woman is born she should be able to wear any clothes that fit her comfortably without reaping the wrath of anyone, right? So I must wear men's pants and shoes since the women's don't fit me, is that MY fault?
Sure I would've liked being born smaller and more delicate person, but I wasn't! And since I was 18 yrs old discovered that I must be bisexual or gay since I could never love men but only women! Its all about love with me, sex I can do without. So as a Perfect God, if I am made this way, then I must accept it as it is and love myself and not hate God for making me this way. So if I can accept myself then why the rest of the world condemns me? Whom I love is between me & God and no one else.
Thank you Jay Baker for trying to make people see this!
Hava gay day!
Peace, Calamity Babs-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Feb 20 2007 at 8:42am by 'I agree with my ex-Baptist friend here that instead of being preched AT, we go on our personal spiritual journeys ourselves (and are accountable to God for our tolerance and accepting our brothers and sisters here on Earth.'
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it.
I couldnt DISAGREE more. We DONT go on our own personal spiritual journey. We go through the blood of Christ that was shed for us on Calvary. It matters not what I think, or what you think is the "best" way. The Bible makes it clear that there is only ONE way.
There is a place for tolerance of others, but I think its much lower on the totem pole than many would like to think in the eyes of God. God was not the least bit tolerant of certain behaviours OVER and OVER and OVER in the Scriptures.
And the verses you mention in the Old Testament - I would check closely their connotation. They were strict guidelines for the Israelites. Some of them were meant for all and are still applicable todayl, but most were strictly for the ancient Jewish tribes.
And though I like the show, knowing Jay's background, its no surprise to me that his theology is a bit messed up.
And thanks, but no thanks for the "have a gay day" salutation. Thats one of the things that really bothers me about the pro-gay movement. You seem to love to rub it in the face of those who are heterosexual and that bugs me.
Speaking of, let me ask you. Do I have the right, as a straight guy, to try to protect the innocence of my little 10 month old daughter? See, I want to keep her innocent for as long as humanly possible. Until she reaches the age of 11 or 12 or so, I dont believe she has the emotional capability of understanding the whole homosexual argument. And I DONT WANT her teacher to be reading her "My 2 mommies" and trying to tell her that homosexual families are no different than heterosexual ones. If that ever happens, I will go to her school, RAISE HELL, and yank her out of that class so fast that it will leave their heads spinning. I want her to be playing with her dolls and being a little girl. OR, in the case that she turns out to be a tomboy, I want her to spend her time playing with frogs and tadpoles. I dont feel the need to have to explain to her the whole homosexual argument until she is ready to understand it. But the homosexual lobby is going to try to push their agenda on myself and my family and my little girl. They are going to rub it in our faces every chance they get through television and music and the rest of the media. You guys dont seem to understand that the majority of America DOES NOT WANT that. I dont despise homosexuals nearly as much as I despise you trying to force your agenda on my little girl. She is not ready for that and she doesnt need to hear all that crap at a young age. So where are my rights as a father? Why am I not allowed to feel that way without being labeled "homophobic" and bigoted? (and by the way, I am not the least bit afraid of gay people. That is one of the stupidest terms that I have ever heard.)
Answer me that one, please.
nessi92000 wrote:
(Feb 19 2007 @ 09:02pm)
jbcowland wrote:
(Dec 22 2006 @ 02:42pm)
I subscribed to your podcast after seeing a promo of you at an independent film house that features Sundance films monthly. I am enjoying the different perspective you bring to Christianity as a Punk Minister.
Of course, I don't have tele access {whole other topic}, so I can't get the whole feel of what your topic is about and how you deal with homosexuality as a minister. I'd like to give my opinion, if I may.
I am a Unitarian Universalist. I truly believe that my spiritual journey is my own and has been entrusted to me as my own. I was heavily involved in the Southern Baptist church until I was 17 and found many things about it hypocritical and ignorant as well as very scary. But one thing that disturbed me the most was how every time I was being preached to during my evangelical training was how Christians were at war and were constantly being prejudged and cast in a role of minority that we have to struggle through. But after reading about the life of Jesus and passages from the Bible, I understood my role as a Christian much differently.
Isn't that he died for us originally? So how is it my responsibility to determine what is right or wrong with other people? I understood my role to be different in Christianity. And thus, I left the Baptist Church. I spent many years learning about Judiaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and many more and found that all of them, when read with an open mind - they all really say the same thing. Love.
My views on Christianity have changed, I have learned a lot about myself through this journey and found Unitarian Universalism to be my match. My views and opinions in this world are certainly my own but they are not my own to force on others. Whether I believe in homosexuality or not, it isn't my call. Every human being deserves to be respected and dignified, no matter the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or their past, along with so many others. Does this mean I have to agree or like them? No. But it does mean I have to respect their descisions in life, because it is theirs to do with as they see fit. When it comes to the end of my life, I want to look back with no regrets. I want to know that I treated others with the same respect and dignity that I have been treated with or did better.
I am pro choice. Not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in my right to choose, regardless if it is life.
I am pro same sex marriage. Not because I believe in homosexuality, but because I believe that everyone should be afforded the same rights that I as a heterosexual am afforded.
These are things that I have been looked down upon by old church mates. I am not hurt, but disappointed. It has been hard to look upon someone with love though they hate your guts, but I am human and not a robot.
I have babbled long enough. I just found your podcast to be so interesting that I felt the need to comment. I hope you continue to do what you feel is right in your heart.
My name is Barbara but since I moved out West, I prefer Calamity Babs. I agree with my ex-Baptist friend here that instead of being preched AT, we go on our personal spiritual journeys ourselves (and are accountable to God for our tolerance and accepting our brothers and sisters here on Earth.)
However, I'm not so sure about the transgendered or transvestite groups who feel they can easily change their born sex by clothes or an operation!
It took me 40 years to accept who I was born as, a gay woman! So no lists of Bible passages are going to convince me otherwise since Jay Baker is right that this was wrong! 2,000 years of bad translations by hostile old men who wanted to alter the words of God into their own versions of 'truth.' Was it really God who said we should sell our children to neighboring tribes and not plant different crops in the same fields? Hardly! And in Deutoronomy it says that women should not wear men's clothes or suffer by death their transgressions? That was how the Catholic Church executed Joan d' Arc from that verse but later made her a Saint! There were no women- made suits of armour back then so it was hardly Joan's fault! And if God is perfect in all things, and I believe He/She is, then when a big-boned woman is born she should be able to wear any clothes that fit her comfortably without reaping the wrath of anyone, right? So I must wear men's pants and shoes since the women's don't fit me, is that MY fault?
Sure I would've liked being born smaller and more delicate person, but I wasn't! And since I was 18 yrs old discovered that I must be bisexual or gay since I could never love men but only women! Its all about love with me, sex I can do without. So as a Perfect God, if I am made this way, then I must accept it as it is and love myself and not hate God for making me this way. So if I can accept myself then why the rest of the world condemns me? Whom I love is between me & God and no one else.
Thank you Jay Baker for trying to make people see this!
Hava gay day!
Peace, Calamity Babs
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Feb 22 2007 at 1:23am by Thank you, Jay, for being brave enough to stand up for your convictions. May God bless you.
Who am I? I am a doctoral student. I am a volunteer for hospice. I am a citizen of the United States. I am lesbian. I am a human being. And, I am loved by God. There are some posts that refer to people as "homosexuals". Please don't do that. It is offensive. You may say "gay and lesbian" persons if you feel some need to highlight our sexual orientation, but not "homosexuals". Also, there is no choice involved. Please don't say that we choose to be gay or lesbian. That is simply not true. You may choose to be hetersexual. Good for you. Though you feel that you have a choice, please don't assume others are choosing.
I have read some words in some of these posts that are hateful and scary. As Jesus turned the other cheek and prayed for those who know not what they do, I shall do the same an pray for those who make hateful remarks against other human beings.
God is a loving God. I will get my strength from him. He has been with me throughout my life. He loves me. His love is good enough for me.
Again, thank you, Jay. May God's love surround you and your family and bring peace, joy and health.
Am
-
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Mar 8 2007 at 2:31am by My name is Laura. I am a 19 year old christian. I am curently going to a church in NC that has home small groups. In my small group we are reading a great book called "Radical Reformission". In the first chapter it talks about the writer having a Gay friend and going to a bar with him. We discussed somethings about it but I am still a little confused. I am a person that goes by what the Bible says not just by what people say. I am confused about so many things. First of all, I believe God loves all of us and has called us to love each other and that all sin is equal but the bible plainly says that Homosexual acts are wrong. I am not saying that we should judge gays I am just saying that we shouldn't act like it is ok either. If you know that someone is doing something wrong you shouldn't sit there and tell them that it is ok to do what they are doing. You should still love them as Christ loves us but like Christ you shouldn't condone it either. We are all sinners and Christ died for all of us and he has called all of us to turn from our sin and have a wonderful relationship with him and he has given us the Holy spirit and our family of believers to do that. Another thing that confuses me is why would God create someone to have no choice but to sin against him. I am not saying that I know everything. I actually saying the opposite, I am just someone that wants to understand. If someone can give me scripture to help me understand I would greatly apreciate it.
Much Love & God Bless,
Laura-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Mar 9 2007 at 4:01pm by Once again Laura, Jesus never condemned homosexuality. The Old testament does. The Old Testament also prohibits eating pork and shellfish. It glorifies slavery.
I am a genetisist, trained at Johns Hopkins, and I know for a fact, homosexuals are born homosexuals.RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Sep 12 2007 at 4:23am by Hundreds of years ago doctors knew for a fact that blood letting helped heal people of their sicknesses.
-
RE: Gay-Affirming Podcast Posted on Apr 15 2007 at 3:28pm by First of all I would like to say your book was honestly, but sad, one of the first books I had ever read all the way through, and it completely opened my eyes up to what real love should look like. I mean the fact that you would even ask for forgiveness from those preachers blew me away, but anyways.
I think the best part about Jay taking a stand on this whole subject wasn't whether he was right or wrong or tolerance or even acceptance.....honestly I think it is just simply that Jay got exactly what he wanted...attention for being different. This subject can not be arruged at all. If you are a Christian then there is absolutely no biblical backing or support that would line up with same sex relationships or marriages being ok, according to the Word of God. Yes there are cultural laws given in the old testament that do not apply to todays cultural, ie..anything that has to do with the Levitical Laws, but in this case when anything is mentioned through out the entire bible it is not a cultural issue, like the subject of Love. In 1 Corinthians 6:9 it states very clearly that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
By all means I am very strong believer in the phrase "hate the sin, not the sinner," I mean how could I never show grace and mercy on everyone else, but then everyday when I mess up or fall short of what God has asked of me to do, I am right there asking God for grace and mercy. God's word says that were sin abounds grace and mercy about so much more, and a big AMEN for that, but it does not excuse the fact that in God's unconditional loving eyes homosexuality is still a sin, just as being bitter and holding grudges and any other wonderful sin that is talked about every Sunday in church.
People are right when they say that God made them in His image and they are perfect the way that God made them, but it doesn't change the fact we were all born into a world of sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, that one act changed everything for the rest of history. I do believe in Generational curses and only by His blood can we ever be free, so the only possibility of being born as a homosexual would be from a spiritual stand point. The thing about generational curses is that we can be delivered and set free from them!!!
Yes when Jesus died he covered all our sins on the cross so we are made new, but to accept Jesus into your heart, (and as a Christian, I believe that is the only way to the Father, is to go through the Son) you have to completely turn from your evil ways and live a life that is pleasing unto God. (Also I know that no one is perfect and we mess up and Jesus will forgive us of our sins)
Further more I do believe that living a homosexual life style is a choice, because we have complete free will to do whatever we want with our lives, so for God to make you homosexual and then speak so clearly in His word against homosexuality, He would be contradicting himself and then the whole entire Bible would be just a lie and Christianity would be another false religion and complete waste of time.
So in conclusion, I would like to say that once again Jay has given us great principals of Christianity to live by,but his applications just do not line up with the Word of God. Yes love people, love everybody, live to serve people and help one another out just as they did in the early churches. Come together as one body, have grace and mercy for others. Be willing to love unconditionally just as our Saviour did for us and as he did over 2000 years ago, but just as God's love is unconditinal for us, the bible tells us very clearly that He is also a God of justice. There will come a time when we are all accountable for our CHOICES and actions that we made in the time we were given, and if we have not asked for Jesus to come into our hearts than we have condemned ourselves to the lake of fire. Please do not confuse my black n white mindset as one that does not understand and have compassion for everyday human struggles and temptations that we all deal with, cause I am on my knees everyday asking God for forgiveness of my sins, but view it as one who wants to see the best for everyone so that none would perish. Hosea 4:6 "...my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge." We need to understand the whole bible and not scriptures that fit into our everyday lifestyle, including me!!!
Thank you Jay...I pray God continues to give you wisdom, knowledge and understanding..
one love..
atop
-
