soulfire2190 wrote:

(Dec 26 2006 @ 05:48pm)

Nope, God does say that homosexuality is wrong....I don't hate gays either, I have a large group of friends that are gay and bi and I love them all the same but what they do is wrong....It says in Leviticus 20:12 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..."

ahpastian wrote:

(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)

Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...



Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.



Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.



You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.



Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.



Am i missing something?



Thanks guys!

jamesical wrote:

(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)

I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.



First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.



Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?



At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.



Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.



I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.



One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.



James



[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)

Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay

soulfire2190 wrote:

(Dec 26 2006 @ 05:48pm)

Nope, God does say that homosexuality is wrong....I don't hate gays either, I have a large group of friends that are gay and bi and I love them all the same but what they do is wrong....It says in Leviticus 20:12 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..."

ahpastian wrote:

(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)

Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...



Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.



Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.



You're right in that God does decide in the end, but he has laid out a right and wrong in the Bible, it's just too hard for me to ignore that. God decides but tells us how to live at the same time. And wether it's lying, stealing, homosexuality, or adultery, those behaviors are clearly laid out in the BIble as sinful behavior.



Please understand. As a pastor i get misunderstood as being anti-homosexual-that i hate them. Honestly, I am a lover of all mankind, but i don't agree with all of mankind's moral decisions and how they behave and relate to others. It goes back to if God agrees with it, then I'm cool with it. But biblically, God does seem to disagree with homosexuality.



Am i missing something?



Thanks guys!

jamesical wrote:

(Dec 26 2006 @ 09:02am)

I know you asked this question of Jay, but I felt compelled to respond.



First, the woman you refer to wasn't called a "whore" in the Bible. The Bible says she was caught in the act of adultery. I mention this because there is a distinct difference.



Secondly, the verse that is so compelling is that Jesus himself said to her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". Condemn means to judge. Jesus told her he wasn't judging her and to sin no more. So, if Jesus didn't judge, and assuming all sin is equal, then how can we judge anyone? Who are we to judge anything as right or wrong to God?



At the time God's law was to stone this woman according to the Old Testament. Did God change his mind? Seems possible.



Do you think it odd that Jesus told her not to "sin" anymore instead of not to commit "adultery" anymore? Do we think the woman sinned "no more"? Not if she were human like the rest of us. The point is that Jesus did not judge her, regardless of the sin. For she had already sinned.



I think what people get caught up in with homosexuality and the Bible is whether it is right or wrong to God. Ultimately that is up to God to decide, not us.



One thing is for certain though, Jesus did say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus didn't direct them to counsel her or to help her change, he just simply said what he said. Perhaps we as Christians can get past this issue and just understand that we are not without sin and judgment is left to God.



James



[quote=ahpastian] (Dec 26 2006 @ 01:25am)

Jay. I just subscribed to your show on itunes and have loved every minute of it. I am a youth pastor and love to get your insights and appreciate your vision of reaching people. I am confused and have a question. We need to love each other as we love God. Great point!! I don't think it's a question of loving each other, but it's more a question of what do we call "morally wrong" to God. I accept the homosexual and love them as a person. I consider their behavior sexually to be wrong. I think what your sexual behvior can be wrong just as much as it can be right (rape, etc.) It's right to love others...I'm so about that. Yet we have to ask the question is the sexual behavior of a homosexual biblically wrong? Jesus didn't condemn the whore but told her to go and don't sin anymore. He recognized her sexual life as sinful and loved her with so much love. Does God consider homosexuality to be a sinful behavior? Please help me out on this as I'm trying to make sense of this. Thanks so much all of you. You are a great man, Jay

jamesical wrote:

(Dec 27 2006 @ 11:18pm)

Well, let's do indeed diaologue. Again, whore and an adultery are NOT the same thing. You personally may consider someone who committed adultery to be a whore, but that doesn't mean they are. Someone who commits adultery may not be promiscuous (per the definition). My point in mentioning that in my previous post was to show how even today we misinterpret the verses. If we can misinterpret that it is possible to misinterpret other things...like the verses on homosexuality for example.



Secondly, please prove the biblical verse where Jesus judged her "sin" and not her. Because, I can't find it...anywhere.



Now, Jesus' "directive" of "sin no more" is subject to interpretation. That, to me, was not a commision to change and not commit adultery anymore. Otherwise, he would have told her "go and commit adultery no more" or "adultery is bad", etc. If the "commission to change" is true then she would have large shoes to fill by not "sinning" anymore. He didn't do that. Could there be some signifigance to that? Perhaps. But, regardless of interpretation Jesus did not judge her. And, ultimately, guess what...I bet you 10 dollars that she sinned afterwards. How do I know this? Because she was human like me.



No where did I say that behavior doesn't matter to God. However, God loves us REGARDLESS of ourselves. Jesus died on the cross FOR us and guess what, we don't have to earn our salvation. We couldn't even if we wanted too. And, thank God that I am still a sinner and HE still LOVES me and FORGIVES me.



My point in the previous post was to show how interpretation makes a difference in the reading of scriptures. You may interpret things one way and someone else another. It is impossible to accurately interpret the Bible without knowledge of the verses context, the social perspective of the time, who was being spoken to and about, not to mention knowledge of Hebrew, Latin, Greek, etc., etc. Man has been arguing about many verses in the Bible for centuries. Who are we to think we know everything and certainly what we can call definitive within the Bible? If you claim to be the person, I wouldn't want to stand near you when the lightening strikes.



James

ahpastian wrote:

(Dec 26 2006 @ 02:28pm)

Let's dialogue. First, she was a whore considering that a whore defined is "a women who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse" (per Webster) and adultry means consentual sex with someone who is married. But that's not the issue...



Secondly, yes, Jesus didn't judge her but made a sound judgment of her behavior...not her. He DID judge her sin but not her. That's my point. We can love a person but not agree with certain behaviors (my point of rape earlier). We all make conclusions on behavior that is right and wrong otherwise "anything goes" if their is no moral authority. God lays out a standard in the Bible of right and wrong. Jay seems to surrender to biblical moral authority. Jesus made a judgment call saying that she was wrong and called it sin. That word,sin, makes me cringe sometimes, but it's what Jesus calls immoral behavior. It us up to God to decide and God did essentially but saying that" it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong it's up to God" would be biblically incorrect.



Thirdly, "go and sin no more" is a commission to change. The Bible says that OT rules and reg's was intentional to lay out a moral authority. We can't ignore our sinful behavior, but in New Testament, Christ offers a way out of our sinful behavior through His forgiveness. God essentially didn't change his mind but fulfilled what God wanted all along. To love people and free them from their sinful behavior.